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Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Admin on Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:53 pm

Here goes. I want you to discuss the subject Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. We have none. Say what you think, read what others think reply and enjoy. All in English.
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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Manon Saroul on Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:03 pm

Discuss about this subject is really interesting. France has a bad mood actually. A lot of people are angry about politic. When you're watching the news (bad idea!) you can't pass next to the stressful actuality. At front of the societal inequalities, sometimes it's difficult to believe to the "Egalité". I think that the liberty is very hard to hit because the consummation society, medias... have a strong influence in us. But i would like to be positive and say that a lot of beautiful things are always in France and in the people !

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Caroline Lemoigne on Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:47 pm

Hi guys, I will give you my opinion about  Liberté. Egalité. Fraternité. We have none.
Yes right know, i'm motivated  Surprised  

I think that it’s a complex subject. In my opinion it depends on the context.

Few years ago, it seems to me that a lot of people didn’t have freedom, for example women couldn’t work without their husband’s agreement or simply vote (and not only women!). They didn’t have equality (everybody in general) because there were social classes that divided the population (and still today). There was no form of fraternity or not totally because there were some forms of competition between people, superiority or/and jealousy. The only moment we could observe a form of fraternity could be during the different wars that France has known (only in this case people understand that they are in the same boat  Shocked ).

Nowadays, I have the impression that it’s in a way of improving, that people are trying to do something to change that (I’m not talking about politicians), but we don’t have a total freedom, a total equality and a total fraternity. We are free to express our opinion or to vote but it’s not enough and it’s not always respected... We are almost equal (better than before even if equalities still exist). Finally, fraternity, it’s hard to explain but people wouldn’t consider each other like brothers and act as such; has the motto want (Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité), this point, like others, are not reach.

What are your views on this ? Do you believe that the principle of freedom, equality and fraternity is respected? Or do you feel it has changed (in the good direction or in the wrong way) ? Or do you think it has never be like that ? Smile

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Caroline Lemoigne on Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:59 pm

I didn't see your post Manon but i agree with you on the point that we are not all equal face to consumption society, because a lot of people are influenced by medias has you said.

It's true that several points are positive in France contrary to other countries.

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Admin on Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:26 am

Thanks for starting the debate Manon and Caroline.

As a tall, white, intelligent, reasonably proportioned, not unattractive, heterosexual, non-disabled man I think that I'm "freer" and "more equal" than most people in France/the West/the world. If only this wasn't spoilt by being a foreigner! Laughing As for "fraternité" I see France and the west as goupings of overlapping tribes that have a brotherhood or community within them but a tribal antagonism to those "outside".

Written wiith the hope of inspiring debate.
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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Manon Saroul on Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:25 pm

I would like to add something. I think that freedom is a complicated thing. I think that all people have their own point of view about this idea.
But sometimes, even if you haven't a lot of right, you feel free in your mind and in your life way. If you feel that you miss of freedom, you can change your mind. Do not wait that politicians change something ... They won't! Change for you, feel free to be yourself and the world will be better. Try to don't be afraid about your reflection ... it's the starter about open minded.

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Antoine DEBERTOLIS on Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:05 pm

Hello everybody,
I will give you my opinion on this subject

Liberty:Yes i think in French, I agree with this word. You can make what you want and when you want. I think we are one of the country with the most of liberty.
Equality: I don't really agree with that. I think in french you have lot of inequality. And in the evolution of the things, Inequalities are increase. French have more and more very poor people and more and more very rich people. We need to find solutions for this because the success can't be buy only with the money. School is for me a place we need to fight the inequality of succes with the money and especially after the baccalaureat.
Fraternity: It's depend in what. I think in french you can find lot of people very helpful and kind with the other. But the law and the Police are not very helpful and have often a bad mentality. They are here only for blame you i feel. While their role should accompagny and find solution for people in trouble a lot more than punish them.

Excuse my English, i try to be better and make less fault.

Have a good day,

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Caroline Lemoigne on Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:12 pm

I desagree with you Antoine on the fact that "you can make what you want and when you want". You can do what you want only partially because everything we do is somehow controlled by law. If you do something, yes you are free to do it but there will be consequences. For example, if you want to kill someone you are free to do it but if you get caugh, you will be judged and send to jail. So even if my example is extrem, we are not totally free. Or you are not free to stay at home if you are a child, you must go to go to school until 16years old (even if this law is a good thing). It depedns on your point of view on a subject (good or bad) but freedom has limits. But i agree on the fact that in France we are more free than in others countries.  

I don't totally agree with your idea "French have more and more very poor people and more and more very rich people. We need to find solutions for this because the success can't be buy only with the money". Success is not always reach with money but mainly with "string-pulling" (according to the dictionary), when someone get the job he wants because he knows someone/a friend who works in this company or someone who can help him to get the job he wants (so thanks to his network).

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Amelie Trarieux on Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:14 pm

Hi everyone,
So i'll just jump into this debate…
I personally have a different opinion on each part of our motto.
Concerning Liberty, I believe that as explained before, we are a country of freedom. But we could still improve A LOT. Of course of freedom stops where the one of others starts. That's an important point. But even though we are "free" we don't always feel safe (at least as a white young female I don't always feel safe) and this keeps us from being really free. But if you compare to other countries, even in Europe or just in the USA or else, we are free to be who we want, but we need to accept the judgements coming with it (that we want it or not).
And I completely agree with Caroline on the "We are free to express our opinion or to vote but it’s not enough and it’s not always respected... We are almost equal (better than before even if equalities still exist). Finally, fraternity, it’s hard to explain but people wouldn’t consider each other like brothers and act as such; has the motto want (Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité), this point, like others, are not reach. "

We are equal, most of the time, or working towards being equal but equality and equity are two different things that come together, and even though we are equal in rights it's DEFINITLY NOT always respected.
One important thing on Fraternity is that it could not be there. I mean, for many countries fraternity is not something that important. And nowadays, with social media and internet it's easy to be alone but connecting to others or surrounded but lonely. What gave me hope was actually the World Cup. I don't especially love football but I have to admit that this summer I have never seen more people from so many different backgrounds being together, sharing a passion or a joy and being FRATERNEL. So fraternity, is not easy, often forgotten but still in each of us, even though sometimes it's deep deep down.

I hope my point makes sense!
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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Marina Guillon on Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:00 pm

Hi everybody, It’s my turn to give you my opinion on this complicated subject!

« Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité » is a symbol of France, and this is why I think we can’t say that « we have none ». France is a country that make a lot of things on this subject (like the human right) and if we compare to the North Korea, France is an example because we can say what we think (freedom of expression) we can study what we want (public school) and we have a good situation in the field of health. It’s only few examples I know !

But I agree with you Caroline, one person's freedom ends where another's begins, so we can’t be entirely freedom. It’s the same with the word « egalité ». We have equal rights, but it still exist differences between men and women, heterosexual and homosexual, rich and poor... (Unfortunately, we can find many examples) And for the last word « fraternité » I think we can see it mostly during bad moments (like Charlie Hebdo) and good moments (The winner of 2018 World Cup is…France) but not every day.

To end my comment (because it is very long) I think in France we have « Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité » (don’t forget other countries). But many things have to be improved! In fact, do you think it’s possible to have entirely « Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité » ? … I don’t think so.

Have a good weekend

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Marina Guillon on Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:03 pm

I didn't see your post Amélie but I agree completely !!

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Diana Gashi 1 on Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:19 pm

Hey everyone !!
Hope you're good and enjoyed your week-end.

It's time to give my opinion about the subject " Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité, we have none".
I believe that this three values will not "die" because France fought for its population to be free, equal and solitary. Like Marina said, "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" is a symbol of France, and we are an expample for another country. France went to war to keep these values.

Nobody isn't perfect, as Amélie said we can still improve. For example, when we speak about pay equity between women and men, sadly we noticed that men earn more than women while they have the same functions. As a woman, I'm angry about this because I find unfair.

About freedom, I think in France we have freedom, but there is still much to improve. I think of the legalization of the surrogate mother. It will be very good for couples who are homosexual, or those who can't have children. In the end, many couples go to countries in Europe to use this opportunity and it's a shame that in their country, they can't have that.

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Blong on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:06 pm

Hi everybody !

It's time for me to give my opinion about this subject. About freedom, in France people are free, free to express their opinion and free to do whatever they want until a limit : " One person's freedom ends where another's begins."

About equality, I think France is the best hypocrite about it. Indeed, you can see everyday how many people are living in the misery when they have to pay tax whereas the richer use the evasion tax to avoid it. And the gap between the richest and the poorest will continue to expand because of the politics reform from last year. Especially for the wealth tax where 1% of the richest people in France are not taxed on 100% of their estate but only between 10% and 20% because the shares are not taxed anymore. Moreover, when people are talking about elitism, to me this is a one of the best way to say that there are inequalities in France. It has been proved that people who live in disadvantaged neighbourhood has less chance to do this kind of studies because the environment is not conducive to study. And still, homosexual, people with backgrounds and women are discriminated.

About fraternity, France is supposed to be a host country but I don't see any fraternity anymore. Especially when France refused to host the migrants on the boat Aquarius which belongs to the NGO SOS Méditerrannée. Being a brother and a sister should not only be between French people. Furthermore, sometimes it's ephemeral just like when France won the World Cup. Everybody is human and everybody should be considered as a brother and a sister.
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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Emeline Giffard on Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:28 pm

Goood evening guys What a Face

"Liberté. Egalité. Fraternité" Ah what a complex topic. What will follow is only my humble opinion on the matter, i don't mean to offend anyone, peace and love in your life <3

The thing is, this motto is something that kinda comes from the past now. It comes from darker times (bit cliché i know) and to me, it reprsents an ideal that the people, back then, wanted to achieve. And did we ? Well, hardly.

"Egalité" is far from being achieved in France. Even if we claim to be the home of Human Rights, when you look at what happens in France everyday, this statement is so far from reality. Every day, people are going through discrimination, verbal and non-verbal violence just because of their gender, their skin colour or their sexual-orientation. People are denied jobs or better careers just because they don't fit some "criterias". What about the wage gap between men and women ? Of course, one could say that we made progress over the years. But these progress don't seem to go any further right now. But i wonder if Egalité is something that we could ever achieve actually ? Basic Egalité is something that we should have though.

"Fraternité" well, this is related to the Revolution i think. People were united under one same banner at that time, their fight against royalty. Nowadays, it seems a little bit off. People don't see themselves as brothers and sisters anymore. We are more in the "competitive" side of things, because we are not going through any revolution at the moment. So yes, i don't think "Fraternité" means anything anymore in France.

And last but not least, "Liberté". Well a lot of you guys have said what i think actually. Sure, we are lucky to live in a country where we are free to express ourselves and to be who we want to be. Even though, i still think that this too, is still somewhat of a ideal. Sure, you can be who you want to be, but if people don't appreciate that, man, life's gonna get tough. People who are not heterosexual are still going through a lot nowadays, for example. Technically, and legally speaking, nothing stops them from showing openly who they are, thing is, people ARE the main obstacle.

I think that what we lack in France, is not "Liberté", or "Egalité" (no maybe we still lack this one actually), or Fraternité", it is just some...respect. We should learn to be more respectful to others. Not judging them because they are supposedly "different". We should'nt try to erase our differences just because of "Egalité". Difference is great. If this guy wants to go out wearing a skirt, then be it. Go and wear your skirt buddy. We all want to live our life freely, so why stopping others from doing so ?

To sum up, I think that we are still not equal in France, even though we are technically free. Fraternité had more sense back then during the Revolution, now it has lost all its meaning.

Have a great night !
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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Admin on Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:21 pm

Some good points.

When you talk about Equality in France are you talking about Equality of opportunity or equality of result?
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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Caroline Lemoigne on Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:12 pm

From my point of view, when we talk about equality it's about equality of opportunity. When you try to give people the same chances of success as others, no matter their social background. It's often say that equality of opportunity has its starting point at school, where everyone can prove itself. Whereas equality of results, i think it's specific to the individual, that it's the efforts that the person has made to get there.

I'm not sure of these notions so I'm waiting for your opinion Smile

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Clothilde Pluchart on Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:19 pm

It's a moment for my to give my opinion on this subject.
I think in France, the motto “Liberty, equality, fraternity” it’s not real. For the liberty, the government makes a lot of rules in the society and we lack freedom. For example, the speed limits, before there was no this and no had a lot of accident. Now a lot of speed limit in the country and there is more accident. For the equality, the country isn’t perfect. For example, the difference of salary between women and men is unfair. For the fraternity, that one depends of events. For example, during terrorist attacks the people gathers together for pay tribute. It’s with this, that we can see the solidarity in France. But on the fraternity in the currently life the fraternity is forget. For example, during the school the social mixity is try by the government but isn't a sucess in the all school. For my part, the people isn't mixte (no mixing all populations others country with french populations) and we keep too much group just with french people. It's crazy because the others people have a lot of any things to learn and to we make discover their culture (knowledge).
For answer with the question on Equality of opportunity or equality of result. I agree with Caroline on the equality of result but for equality of opportunity i don't agree. I think the people have different equality of opportunity because when you research a job it's more easy when you have contact in your sector and when no contact it's more complicated. As a result, equality of opportunity are different and isn't tie just merit.

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Amelie Trarieux on Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:09 pm

From reading all of the texts I'm thinking that equality is something we can look toward achieving but that we can never really reach because there are not two people on Earth or in France with the same backgrounds. So even though we would give Equality of Opportunity, too many things could mess it up or improve it for someone that we can't take into consideration.
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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Manon Saroul on Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:42 pm

To answer to your last post, Caroline, for a part, i agree with you. A lot of exemple show us that it's possible to succeed even if you're not from the most favored social origin. But I can't say that we have all the same chance in school. That's not true in France, that's not more in a lot of other countries. Just have a look to the commercial school. For the big part of them, you'll pay 6000 euros minimum for a year ... But if you can, it's good for your CV. In effet, coming from a good commercial school is a really really great advertising for you. But all people haven't enough money to go to this sort of school. So, here, i don't really see the equality ...

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by FLEGEAU PAULINE on Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:19 pm

Hi everyone ! I'm little late for exprime my opinion about subject of "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" but better late than never as we say Wink !! I see we have novelist in this group, it's good for debate ! (but not for read rapidly ha ha!!)

We can say many thinks about "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" because it's depend point of view of each people and as we are unique, this debate can not have end (I know why M.Cox choose this subject !)

"Liberté" and "Egalité" go together for me. We did laws for have more equality in liberty, i don’t know if you see what I mean ^^ There are laws, and everybody must respect their and if everyone respect same laws, everybody have more liberty !(ex: rich people can buy speed car like ferrari, it's little more rapidly than "Clio", but have law on speed on the road, everyone is supposed to ride at the same speed). What do you think ?

"Fraternité" – first instinct of Humain, is to survive ! He’s not fraternal at the originally …. He only saw the opportunity to rest in group “together we’re stronger”. So, for me it’s normal to not consider everybody like my sister/brother. Term “Fraternité” appreared in moment in which time there were need (fight the law in place !). Term stayed in memory because French Revolution was strong moment, nowaday it’s just in motto (many of you say that) French history as an utopian achieve. In some strong moments we can find « Fraternité » as it was probably the case at the time (like attentat or more happy, final wolrd of foot this summer).

To sum up, nothing is ever acquired and we just try to continue for make a better world! <3
PS : at the beginning, I don’t understand why people have wrote a lot ! But now… I know! =)

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by FLEGEAU PAULINE on Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:28 pm

Now, talk about the second part of this debate : What type of equality ?(Equality of opportunity or equality of result)

I agree with Clothilde on the equality of opportunity. I think chance or coincidence (call it what you want) have big part in equality of opportunity. The middle part exactly, because it depend retake the example of job search, it depends on the enthusiasm of the person for research (sure) but also people that you meet too !
So for me is not just merit, it's also coincidence of the life, mix of both.

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Admin on Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:45 pm

FLEGEAU PAULINE wrote: I see we have novelist in this group, it's good for debate ! (but not for read rapidly ha ha!!)

To sum up, nothing is ever acquired and we just try to continue for make a better world! <3
PS : at the beginning, I don’t understand why people have wrote a lot ! But now… I know! =)

Razz Laughing
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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Pauline Maurisset on Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:52 pm

Better late than never, my turn to react to this ridiculous sentence "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity: we have none". WE HAVE NONE ?????
Yeah, I'm angry, I'm angry because I totally disagree with that. We have all of this. You just have to cross the road and you will have liberty, equality and fraternity (ahahah).

More seriously, what disturbs me in this subject is the fact that it is based on a complain, as if French people lived in a catastrophic country, without freedom. Of course, there's not a PERFECT equality between people, if we look at the society we can find a lot of inequalities, for example between men and women, the rich and the poor... but these types of inequalities, what if it were what actually constitute our society ? Without inequalities, sociologist would have nothing to work on, it would be so sad...

We have to put things into perspective. Go to North Korea, and you'll see the difference. I think that if you tell a Korean "oh, in France we have no liberty, no equality, no fraternity, life is so hard..." you'll just be judged as the perfect cliché of the unbereable French and he'll just gonna want to kill you (if a bomb doesn't kill him before).

Actually, I'm convinced that what makes French people angry is the fact that our Liberty is supervised. So, there's a misunderstanding between liberty and supervising of the liberty. We are free, but, obviously, we have to respect some codes, some laws, but these laws don't prevent us to be free, it just, on the contrary, allow us to be free in the most perfectly way.
I've observed a certain refusal of the autority that despair me. This autority have to exist, otherwise, it would be the anarchy.

Concerning fraternity, if one day you feel like being very very alone, just try to think that other people are all idiots and that you're the only one capable of leading your life.

Now, in the name of our beautiful and efficient values that are liberty, equality and fraternity, I'll just return to my Netflix series while eating the whole Nutella's pot because I'm free to become fat if I want.

Thank you  Smile  I love you

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Chloé Gailledrat on Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:32 pm

"Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" According to me, this motto echoes to values which I learned during my scholarship and more, along all my life (quite short for the moment). I'm proud of it, I'm proud to be French and bring these values but there are many facts we can discuss about this motto.
First, for me, French is the country of freedom of speech, the most important liberty in a country and for everyone because it includes freedom of religion and freedom to talk about his ideas. A good example could be the movement after the Charlie Hebdo's attack, #JeSuisCharlie and the fact that every country were reunited for this event because the freedom of speech was attacked in his mother country. Without this liberty, Zola would never wrote his famous article "J'accuse" and so on. So, yes, we have Liberty but we have to accept that each person's liberty stop when he encounter someone else just in the aim to respect each person.
Then, about Equality, I think that it's just an illusion and it never existed even though the French Revolution. We don't have all the same chance at start because we can't all born in a rich family or an educated family. It's a fact. Some people have to work more than others to get what they want.
And about Fraternity, it exists in France only thanks FIFA World Cup or FIFA Champions League or sports in general. (We are World Champion yeahhhh !!) Sure, it's the only moment when you can see people in the street enjoying together. In dailylife, it's quite different. When someone is assaulted in the street, anybody dare to react... Fraternity should not be like this in my mind.

To conclude, for me our motto should be "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity... In progress"

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Re: Group 2 First discussion subject

Post by Babis Papageorgiou on Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:47 am

Hi everyone!

I'm sorry I was late.I really forgot that we had to discuss about this subject.Fortunately I was searching to wright about the 'series thing' and I found this conversation.
Nowdays the only combats you meet is below facebook posts,so first of all I would like to thank Mr. John (slurp) who reminded me with this blog, my school years when I was fighting behind the screen with people from all arround the world,about a video game.Priceless! Now we know each other but still...haha

To the subject I think that the phrase 'Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité. We have none.'
is a metaphor (figure of speech).

I'm not going to talk about freedom of speech or acting in today's France because it's something that exists of course as the fraternity and the equality.We should not be thankfull for that -well, we should be speaking of history of France- but we decribe a modern society in 21st century.So f*ck the 'if you were living in a third world country you hadn't the same opininon'.I'm not going to speak about a 'fantastic situation' or to compare countries.The point is to discuss how we can fight to have the true meaning of these 3 words in our lives.

So the thing is 'are we really free'?Or are we manufactured manipulated consumer animals hunting ideal standards searching of the 'assumed' hapiness?
Well, 'if you'are asking me' yes we are.(the 2nd).But we all find ways and moments in our daily life to feel free and happy.

Concerning equality we are speaking of which equality?Between men and women?Between races or between social classes.I don't see any equality when there are still financial unbalances between the 2 sexes in the work environment or when women
get/have sexual herassements.I don't see it when you meet often racist behaviors or when you see people sleep in the streets while some others eat with golden spoons.

Finally about the fraternity the answer is in the power of the political part of lepen.I don't accuse French people of course.In Greece the 3rd more powerfull political part is golden dawn.A part of neonazi and facist.The rise of extream-right parts is a fact in all the capitalistic crises not only in Europe.

P.S. I just wanted to put pepper in the food/conversation.I didn't express clearly my opinion and I don't want someone to misundestand these little words. I'm sorry if I missed something of the French actuality,I don't know it very well.Be positif.
Peace

Babis Papageorgiou

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