M2 PACK discussion - marks on school ?

Topic of the Week !!!
This week is about education…. more precisely school education….and Ministry of National Education.

Do you think that in France we "give" too importance on marks on school ?
Do you think that we have to think about "alternative" at marks, sanction and assessment ?
According to some scientifics and doctors, this king of method will favour the "underperforming at school"….

An alternative could be find at the Montessori School ?

Enjoy

Yes France is so "mark" oriented that it is detrimental to teaching.

Certainly an alternative should be created. We learn and remember better when we enjoy, courses need flexibility and choice, which are both against the thinking of a national curriculum. Class sizes need to be smaller, class times variable and a move away from the litigation culture that has developed in the western world to once again allow teachers the possibility to move outside the school into the real world to teach without fear of losing their jobs.

Education should be about educating everyone for life, work and enjoyment. Being a more caring, helpful, thinking citizen is , in my opinion, more important than understanding every mathematical equation, irregular verb or historical point. If we're interested in these things we'll learn them when we are ready - especially in this digital age.

Elitist school systems are counterproductive to a better community and better world. Getting a 15 in a subject is irrelevant. A nation should be more aware of its lowest education standard than its highest. Genetically some people are made to excell in subjects and others never will, lets not punish people for their genetics. Let's teach the better endowed to help the less endowed as we would hope that adults help children.

The capitalist system drives an inequitable view of the world. Laziness is bad but lower intelligence isn't.

hello everybody !

Mark is unfair and is not signifiant about you and what you can do.
When you are in high school and you succeed in all your marks they will oriente you in the S section. It seen as the best section...poor education.

I think there is other method to evaluate people on their capabilities and their own intelligence.
Like you said John some people are made to excell in subjects and others never will. So we need to be help to find our field of predilection.
So Mark can be an indication of our culture. Because to know some mathematical, or languages rules are important to have a base of reflection.
And some courses can be more flexible and interactive to know more about a subject which interest you when you are ready.

In high school, we can have some courses more personnal : on oral presentation (to learn how to express your-self), to have a project to lead or some interships to do. For me we need to have courses that permit to discover us : our skills and abilities.
Do you think it is a good idea ?

Hii !!!!
I will say something....people will not like it !!!!!
In fact, marks on school is a system which is suitable for me...Most of time my marks represent my personal investment. We say in french : "His investment in his academic work is bearing fruit".
This system very "well-define" is perfect for my vision and caracter ! This system is for me "security" and "framework". And I love that because it go hand in hand with my personnality.
In my mind, have a mark is like an "objective" to achieve. I prefer to go to "somewhere", the vision motivate me a lot ! I am deeply convince that we need "base" for our future and if we don't have mark, people will not are going to learn or read lessons.... For me mark, it's important, because it's permite to say me if I have understood the lesson and that if I can do something of my life. When I have worked a lot and I have a good mark, I am very happy...I feel good...a simple and pleasant sensation.
The question is if we don't have marks, what is the method to validate our certificate ? I learn your alternatives Megane, it could be good

I am not a teacher, so I can have your constraints John...but I can understand your frustration as a teacher....

The main problem for me, it's there is a BIG difference between School and Work !!! It's totally the opposite. That is a big problem for me because the school system is good for me but not necessarily the work world

Marion.LM wrote:
The main problem for me, it's there is a BIG difference between School and Work !!! It's totally the opposite. That is a big problem for me because the school system is good for me but not necessarily the work world    

Shouldn't school be ALL about preparing you for life and work? Do you get a mark for how nice and helpful you were to the old lady on the street this morning? Do you get a mark for stacking the shelves at intermarché? The mark isn't preparing you for life. As much as it makes you feel happy it makes other less gifted students feel inadequate, feel like losers, it makes them think that they are worthless and so what's the point of learning for them? Moreover our education system is focussed on the academic, not the practical. We need builders and plumbers and bakers and mechanics but all too often the people who end up in these jobs are those that have "failed" in the academic system, yet they have skills that most academically gifted people do not. At school they are stigmatised.

I, personally, think that an education system should be trying to form well adjusted, complete people who will be good for their society/community. I want to help make a society that cares for others more than I want to create a bi-lingual genius.

I know that you like the classics - Can you imagine a Greek tutor sitting on a hillside with his students and at the end of the session saying Socrates you have 3 out of 10, Plato you get a 7.45 today?

I really dislike the competitiveness of our system. I wish it was collaborative. If man is going to survive and prosper, we (you) need to work together not compete against each other. You need to get your "happiness" from a job well done with friends, not from getting a higher score than them (and I know you didn't say it but the truth is that if we are giving someone a good mark we also have to give others a bad mark - that is our system).

Admin wrote:

Marion.LM wrote:
The main problem for me, it's there is a BIG difference between School and Work !!! It's totally the opposite. That is a big problem for me because the school system is good for me but not necessarily the work world    

Shouldn't school be ALL about preparing you for life and work? Do you get a mark for how nice and helpful you were to the old lady on the street this morning? Do you get a mark for stacking the shelves at intermarché? The mark isn't preparing you for life. As much as it makes you feel happy it makes other less gifted students feel inadequate, feel like losers, it makes them think that they are worthless and so what's the point of learning for them? Moreover our education system is focussed on the academic, not the practical. We need builders and plumbers and bakers and mechanics but all too often the people who end up in these jobs are those that have "failed" in the academic system, yet they have skills that most academically gifted people do not. At school they are stigmatised.

I, personally, think that an education system should be trying to form well adjusted, complete people who will be good for their society/community. I want to help make a society that cares for others more than I want to create a bi-lingual genius.

I know that you like the classics - Can you imagine a Greek tutor sitting on a hillside with his students and at the end of the session saying  Socrates you have 3 out of 10, Plato you get a 7.45 today?

I really dislike the competitiveness of our system. I wish it was collaborative. If man is going to survive and prosper, we (you) need to work together not compete against each other. You need to get your "happiness" from a job well done with friends, not from getting a higher score than them (and I know you didn't say it but the truth is that if we are giving someone a good mark we also have to give others a bad mark - that is our system).

Hi ! what a big text !!
In the French educational vision, in fact, I think, teachers have to prepare us for certificate and not for work life. I remenber a discussion that we had in art applied course....A student say to a teacher that our BTS didn't prepare us for work life. The teacher said us : "Yes, I know, but, it's not my objective, I prepare you to have certificate Bac + 2. The work life is after and no school in France prepare you really to work in life." I agree with you "The mark isn't preparing you for life." but I think that the objective of the mark is only validate your certificate not preparing you for life. I think it's only you, that can prepare you to work in life. For example, I did an interview with a design agency, and I screw it     , I am not enough "impressive" and too "simple" student". School can't prepare me to "face this", so I think only life and time can learn me that....

You are right, we don't have mark for helping the old lady on the street (this for me it's differente and it's name "civility", and to be "well educated").

I agree with you mister admin "Moreover our education system is focussed on the academic, not the practical". But I can't criticize this because I prefer the "academic way" !! In england, What is education system, more academic ? more practical ?, in Spain, it's a little bit like in France, so....

I totally agree with you when you say : "We need builders and plumbers and bakers and mechanics but all too often the people who end up in these jobs are those that have "failed" in the academic system, yet they have skills that most academically gifted people do not. At school they are stigmatised." Ya, it's true and I don't know why...For example, I have a diploma of "architural prototype" (I worked in atelier like a kind of factory) and when I said that during my interview, people get to understand me that it's "rubbish" and not rewarding. But it's a national diploma and I am prood of it... This diploma is a national diploma (known by the State) but it has no equivalence in University, so people don't pay attention to this. I don't know why because is a so beautiful job.... I understand your vision John, me too, I would like to help people and reduce the inequality....but for this mentality have to be changed (and I am not sure that prohibit marks is the real solution)....

I hear your own arguments. Personally I have never evolved in a system other than the French system so I have no perspective, except in kindergarten we had an indication of our "work" between A and D. Moreover I believe that middle and high school our academic record and annotated with this type of notation to take stock of our skills in the end.

I understand Marion, for me marks allow to locate my work and to know if I succeeded or not. Someone may be good talker but no hard worker is in this case he will get a bad note, in another system he could get a good rating. I think that marks reduce this type of injustice. After that there are also hard-working people who will not be able to apply the exercise ... and for all that it is a motivated person. The school program has taught me a lot of things that I will never have learned alone, in further study it is often more fun because we start to choose according to what we like to do.

Concerning the human values that John evokes and that should be inculcated in school, personally I do not expect that from the school, I consider that my parents taught me everything about respect and know-how-to-be.

I think that the students are too lax so that this kind of system can't be applied in France. If I get a good grade, I'm not going to be happy about a friend who has a bad one, I'll try to help him understand the course, but if it's someone who is not, I do not see why I will have this scruple while I stayed at home to work during the weekend, this person went out to have fun. Without a rating system there is a risk of lack of involvement, if there is no rating system, why I will not go out if nobody will know anything and no impact. Otherwise it could be to validate the year if you follow the courses assidument that is to say without absence (except exception) and you listen to the course without necessarily making an assessment that would be detrimental to people motivated but not necessarily good in this matter.

On the other hand, I am for the return of compulsory military service for boys and girls to have another vision of respect and maybe it will be possible to change things...

At Primary school - particularly infant school - marks never used to be given (I know they are more and more so now). Did that mean that you didn't learn? Or you tried any less to learn?

Here are a couple of "alternative Education" Articles. I don't agree with everything that they say but I think they are thought provoking and interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/01/no-grades-no-timetable-berlin-school-turns-teaching-upside-down

This is an article where OFSTED (the UK government's office for standards in Education) state that marking has no reasearch based evidence for improving student learning.

https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2016/nov/29/teacher-schools-marking-policy-students-work

I feel the "Education" that you are championing is a form of conditioning that you have been manipulated into thinking is good for you.

I deplore that your teacher, Marion, said she was teaching for your certificate. I know that is true and necessary in our system but to me it is a complete corruption of what Education should be.

Melody, your writing is beautiful, I think that you underestimate a child's desire to learn. The most comment thought in a child's brain is "WHY?" They become "lax" and stop making as much effort as you either because the class seems to be irrelevant to them, they are not ready for the tuition, It is not made interesting enough for them or it is too easy for them and not challenging enough (and many other reasons of course). The system needs to allow the teacher to create work that a student wants and that motivates them to do this work outside the class.

It shouldn't be fear of not getting a good grade that makes you do the work but a desire to want to know what is being taught. This exists in young children and then the system kills it, we need to keep this desire in them throughout schooling.

Hopefully Bachelors and Masters students choose their subjects because they want to learn them (though sadly in our system this is often not the case). the fun needs to be put into the work and then the drink and parites may not have so much pull.

I honestly believe that I could take 1 class of students for the week, every week and educate them in a way that they would love and not even think of not doing the work. The problem is that for that a class would need to be smaller and I'd need a lot of resources. Imagine travelling to England and "living" English with a group of students and your tutor for a couple of weeks - whilst also having to organise the activities, cook, clean etc.. as a team of students.

You would learn more English and about English as well as many life skills in a week than you learn through a year's English classes.

Children are curious by nature, they are interested in discovering life and are easily amazed. Arriving at the teenager is more complicated, we start to rebel and know what we want so there is less enthusiasm. When we are children we see the school as a "daycare", we are happy to have a teacher, friends ...

Maybe education could offer alternatives directly after primary school, with less theoretical courses but I do not know if at this age we really know what we would like to learn. At the end of the college you can choose different courses.

Your vision is case-by-case, if it is rational this system seems complicated to me, including much more work for teachers who should tailor their courses to each student.

Your courses are very nice and we also feel this less theoretical side that is pleasant, but to go beyond it requires the budget, for exemple to be able to offer language courses abroad.

Hello, everyone,

I think that the education system in France is generally not very well thought out, in terms of education, classroom learning or grades.
I have made good use of grades during my school years, but i think it influences behaviour of people in class from an early age, even if they feel "bad" or "strong".
Notes can lead to overwork for some personalities. Some people are very competitive and the score is a reward of sorts. I have an knowledge that has always worked harder to get better grades and to be the best in all her classes. But i'm not sure it will give you more knowledge. On the contrary, i think it takes away childhood, teenage years and that private life is at the detriment of success.
Of course, here i'm talking of an extreme about grades in school.

Hi there !
I've read all your comments, it's very interesting !
I do agree with Mister Admin, I am not for the marks on school. In my case, all my studies I was anxious about have a good marks so I studied a lot, it was real pain and then I had a good mark and one week later I had forgot all the things I learned before…

Melody, when you say that it is complicated for teenagers to be interested, I think it is false. I think teenagers are not interested because the system doesn't works, it want us to enter in boxes. When I arrived in Highschool I was very frustrated because I had to choose between ES L or S and I didn't like any of these. I wanted something maybe more artistic or more "manual" but as I was a good student so I was "obliged" to go to "general school". I really think that everyone is different. The system want to put us in boxes, and teach to those who learn easily and have good mark, to raise an elite and ignore everyone else. I was not as critic before as I am know but during my 2 Erasmus I met people with a very different education model. For example, my german flatmate explained to me that since the secondary school she could chose the teaching she wanted, like art + math + history or watever. So she didn't needed a mark because she was actually very interested with the subjects she chose. I also think it is a very goos model because all the students profils are different and more adapted for a company or an other! There is no competitivity (I hate that in France), people just build their way in order to meet a job they really like. An other advantage is that all the students are taken into account at the contrary of France where people who Don't belong to a box are forgotten. It is good for you marion and Melody if you belong at one of them but a large part of other students are not, due to this system.
I Don't agree with you when you say that school shoul not prepare for work life, what is the use then ? To get a diploma ? What is the use of a diploma then ? You can have a diploma and be worse that someone who Don't have.. I think school is the basis to live better, it should learn us to respect the others, to work in team, to encourage us and join us to found our future. Education should have the largest state budget because most of things sprand from it. Education raised and sensibilize our future generations.
I can't explain me well in English which it is very frustrating but I hope you understood my point of view

Hi !

I understand your point of view Clémence, and I agree. The school must prepare for life in society, to respect others but also to socialize through other students. But school also helps to educate children, with the same programs to give the same chance to everyone regardless of social background.
To go back to the grade system, in primary my teacher rated us on 4. The 1 was an insufficient work, the 2 was average, 3 well and 4 very well. This is a rating system that I liked because the ratings were less extensive and allowed to really report the work done. It was once I arrived at college that I discovered the marks system out of 20.
It's an alternative to the 20's rating, but it's still a notation. After I think this system create some competitiveness among students, but it also allows to reward the work provided by a good mark. Our education system is based on notation, maybe the assessments could be an acceptable alternative depending on the school level.

Melody Gazengel wrote:I hear your own arguments. Personally I have never evolved in a system other than the French system so I have no perspective, except in kindergarten we had an indication of our "work" between A and D. Moreover I believe that middle and high school our academic record and annotated with this type of notation to take stock of our skills in the end.

I understand Marion, for me marks allow to locate my work and to know if I succeeded or not. Someone may be good talker but no hard worker is in this case he will get a bad note, in another system he could get a good rating. I think that marks reduce this type of injustice. After that there are also hard-working people who will not be able to apply the exercise ... and for all that it is a motivated person. The school program has taught me a lot of things that I will never have learned alone, in further study it is often more fun because we start to choose according to what we like to do.

Concerning the human values that John evokes and that should be inculcated in school, personally I do not expect that from the school, I consider that my parents taught me everything about respect and know-how-to-be.

I think that the students are too lax so that this kind of system can't be applied in France. If I get a good grade, I'm not going to be happy about a friend who has a bad one, I'll try to help him understand the course, but if it's someone who is not, I do not see why I will have this scruple while I stayed at home to work during the weekend, this person went out to have fun. Without a rating system there is a risk of lack of involvement, if there is no rating system, why I will not go out if nobody will know anything and no impact. Otherwise it could be to validate the year if you follow the courses assidument that is to say without absence (except exception) and you listen to the course without necessarily making an assessment that would be detrimental to people motivated but not necessarily good in this matter.

On the other hand, I am for the return of compulsory military service for boys and girls to have another vision of respect and maybe it will be possible to change things...

I totally agree with you !!!...I don't know what kind of thing I can add....

Admin wrote:At Primary school - particularly infant school - marks never used to be given (I know they are more and more so now). Did that mean that you didn't learn? Or you tried any less to learn?

Here are a couple of "alternative Education" Articles. I don't agree with everything that they say but I think they are thought provoking and interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/01/no-grades-no-timetable-berlin-school-turns-teaching-upside-down

This is an article where OFSTED (the UK government's office for standards in Education) state that marking has no reasearch based evidence for improving student learning.

https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2016/nov/29/teacher-schools-marking-policy-students-work

I feel the "Education" that you are championing is a form of conditioning that you have been manipulated into thinking is good for you.

I deplore that your teacher, Marion, said she was teaching for your certificate. I know that is true and necessary in our system but to me it is a complete corruption of what Education should be.

Melody, your writing is beautiful, I think that you underestimate a child's desire to learn. The most comment thought in a child's brain is "WHY?" They become "lax" and stop making as much effort as you either because the class seems to be irrelevant to them, they are not ready for the tuition, It is not made interesting enough for them or it is too easy for them and not challenging enough (and many other reasons of course). The system needs to allow the teacher to create work that a student wants and that motivates them to do this work outside the class.

It shouldn't be fear of not getting a good grade that makes you do the work but a desire to want to know what is being taught. This exists in young children and then the system kills it, we need to keep this desire in them throughout schooling.

Hopefully Bachelors and Masters students choose their subjects because they want to learn them (though sadly in our system this is often not the case). the fun needs to be put into the work and then the drink and parites may not have so much pull.

I honestly believe that I could take 1 class of students for the week, every week and educate them in a way that they would love and not even think of not doing the work. The problem is that for that a class would need to be smaller and I'd need a lot of resources. Imagine travelling to England and "living" English with a group of students and your tutor for a couple of weeks - whilst also having to organise the activities, cook, clean etc.. as a team of students.

You would learn more English and about English as well as many life skills in a week than you learn through a year's English classes.

Hi Mister Admin !
What a big debate !!
I agree with Melody when she says that the elimination of marks could be provocate a reduction of the implication of students, especially in the teenage years....when teenagers don't like anything and don't want to do anything...

"I feel the "Education" that you are championing is a form of conditioning that you have been manipulated into thinking is good for you.". In fact, Mister Admin, I am not "conditioned" and I don't think that the "Education" manipulated me into thinking is good for me. I only say that this kind of system is suitable for me and bring me a frame. School bring me severity and when I worked in company, this "severity" is appreciated. I think is to difficult to recreate the "campany universe" in school.

"The system needs to allow the teacher to create work that a student wants and that motivates them to do this work outside the class." In fact, Mister Admin, there are lots students that are not motivate because they prefer be "somewhere else". I think is very, very, very difficult and very "long" to apply your approach (it's a very interested approach that you suggest). But we don't have time....we don't have money.....and government prefers to remove the ISF than give money for education..
Like you said : "I'd need a lot of resources", and we don't have...and we can't do, like Melody said, "case by case". We can't generalize your approach, we have to "standardize" the education to have a kind of "comparability". Otherwise, certificates and trainings will mean nothing....And in work life, you are evaluates first by your diploma and after by your capacity to adapt you and to respect the rules, and School bring me this kind of thing.

Clémence Giraud wrote:Hi there !
I've read all your comments, it's very interesting !
I do agree with Mister Admin, I am not for the marks on school. In my case, all my studies I was anxious about have a good marks so I studied a lot, it was real pain and then I had a good mark and one week later I had forgot all the things I learned before…

Melody, when you say that it is complicated for teenagers to be interested, I think it is false. I think teenagers are not interested because the system doesn't works, it want us to enter in boxes. When I arrived in Highschool I was very frustrated because I had to choose between ES L or S and I didn't like any of these. I wanted something maybe more artistic or more "manual" but as I was a good student so I was "obliged" to go to "general school". I really think that everyone is different. The system want to put us in boxes, and teach to those who learn easily and have good mark, to raise an elite and ignore everyone else. I was not as critic before as I am know but during my 2 Erasmus I met people with a very different education model. For example, my german flatmate explained to me that since the secondary school she could chose the teaching she wanted, like art + math + history or watever. So she didn't needed a mark because she was actually very interested with the subjects she chose. I also think it is a very goos model because all the students profils are different and more adapted for a company or an other! There is no competitivity (I hate that in France), people just build their way in order to meet a job they really like. An other advantage is that all the students are taken into account at the contrary of France where people who Don't belong to a box are forgotten. It is good for you marion and Melody if you belong at one of them but a large part of other students are not, due to this system.
I Don't agree with you when you say that school shoul not prepare for work life, what is the use then ? To get a diploma ? What is the use of a diploma then ? You can have a diploma and be worse that someone who Don't have.. I think school is the basis to live better, it should learn us to respect the others, to work in team, to encourage us and join us to found our future. Education should have the largest state budget because most of things sprand from it. Education raised and sensibilize our future generations.
I can't explain me well in English which it is very frustrating but I hope you understood my point of view  

For me the diploma serves to validate the skills acquired during studies, the practice is a way to verify it, but to judge I do not see any other way than to assign a notation or so we can consider that if the student followed the courses with diligent, he acquired the skills. Why not!

If you take the example of the forum in English, despite the wide choice that we have had on topics and in all areas, the result was mixed.

Regarding your studies, after college there are other "a-level" than general "a-level", "a-level" technology for art you have the ST2A formation. It is very creative and manual and it is well recognized, for example after my baccalaureate ES I was blocked to access the degree in Design Communication Space and Volume, I did not have the level with my baccalaureate ES, I had to do a year of preparation, while with a baccalaureate ST2A I will have been accepted directly .. If you want to do a general bac, you can take options, plastic arts, music, sports ... but don't worry it's the last year of study

Melody Gazengel wrote:

Clémence Giraud wrote:Hi there !
I've read all your comments, it's very interesting !
I do agree with Mister Admin, I am not for the marks on school. In my case, all my studies I was anxious about have a good marks so I studied a lot, it was real pain and then I had a good mark and one week later I had forgot all the things I learned before…

Melody, when you say that it is complicated for teenagers to be interested, I think it is false. I think teenagers are not interested because the system doesn't works, it want us to enter in boxes. When I arrived in Highschool I was very frustrated because I had to choose between ES L or S and I didn't like any of these. I wanted something maybe more artistic or more "manual" but as I was a good student so I was "obliged" to go to "general school". I really think that everyone is different. The system want to put us in boxes, and teach to those who learn easily and have good mark, to raise an elite and ignore everyone else. I was not as critic before as I am know but during my 2 Erasmus I met people with a very different education model. For example, my german flatmate explained to me that since the secondary school she could chose the teaching she wanted, like art + math + history or watever. So she didn't needed a mark because she was actually very interested with the subjects she chose. I also think it is a very goos model because all the students profils are different and more adapted for a company or an other! There is no competitivity (I hate that in France), people just build their way in order to meet a job they really like. An other advantage is that all the students are taken into account at the contrary of France where people who Don't belong to a box are forgotten. It is good for you marion and Melody if you belong at one of them but a large part of other students are not, due to this system.
I Don't agree with you when you say that school shoul not prepare for work life, what is the use then ? To get a diploma ? What is the use of a diploma then ? You can have a diploma and be worse that someone who Don't have.. I think school is the basis to live better, it should learn us to respect the others, to work in team, to encourage us and join us to found our future. Education should have the largest state budget because most of things sprand from it. Education raised and sensibilize our future generations.
I can't explain me well in English which it is very frustrating but I hope you understood my point of view  

For me the diploma serves to validate the skills acquired during studies, the practice is a way to verify it, but to judge I do not see any other way than to assign a notation or so we can consider that if the student followed the courses with diligent, he acquired the skills. Why not!

If you take the example of the forum in English, despite the wide choice that we have had on topics and in all areas, the result was mixed.

Regarding your studies, after college there are other "a-level" than general "a-level", "a-level" technology for art you have the ST2A formation. It is very creative and manual and it is well recognized, for example after my baccalaureate ES I was blocked to access the degree in Design Communication Space and Volume, I did not have the level with my baccalaureate ES, I had to do a year of preparation, while with a baccalaureate ST2A I will have been accepted directly .. If you want to do a general bac, you can take options, plastic arts, music, sports ... but don't worry it's the last year of study    

I totally agree with you Melody,
For me diploma is a "certificate of aptitude". It's very important to bring an evidence to your recruter. In fact, if we have not a certificate, how to show your level ? How to show your aptitude ? Like Melody, I do not see any other way than to assign a notation....... and in fact, for "up english " the result was mixed like she said.

I was in the same situation as Melody, creative and manual formations exist like (DMA, CAP, DNAP, DNSEP, DSAA, Art applied studies.....). It's very good and interesting formation but to validate this formation we need diploma and level certification