Group A Fifth topic

"France is an elitist country and elitism is bad for the country"

What do you think about this statement?

Peter Gumbel wrote a book about the topic here are three links to articles about the book:

Independent

Guardian

the Local

Thoughts?

Hi,

France is an elitism country because to success at school it is necessary to study. The key word is to success , to earn money it's necessary to study. Is it bad to encourage young people to succeed? The answer is no. In France, culture of the excellence can put lots of pressures on the young people and it can depreciate them. Students who have difficulty are pushed and endure this culture of the excellence. The early school leaving can be explain by this culture. Only the best reach "Grandes Ecoles". However, they represent only a small part of the population. This elitism is bad when we see deputies in the National Assembly bickering as in the school playground. People who did not study can to feel a feeling of frustration when they see that.

I come from Vietnam where is a developing socialist country. So the political system in my country has differences compared to France. Vietnamese leaders graduated from different faculties such as law, literature, finance, etc and many people among them didn't graduate from big universities. However, in order to become a politic, they also need to pass political courses at superior political school.
To drive well a country or company, knowledge of the head plays a very important role. Therefore I think about half of the current Ministers is the ENA product or excellent organizations, such as Sciences Po elite, and this is not unreasonable that 84 percent of 546 executives in 40 large companies were graduates from elite colleges in France. Thanks to the good education system of the big schools, students will acquire sufficiently skills and knowledge to become leaders who will drive an organization, a company or even a country. This contributes to not only economic but also social development of a country.

« France’s got talent, the woeful consequences of French elitism”, written by Peter Gumbel is a very interesting book.
Indeed, thanks to the guardian or the independent, we can say that Royaume-Uni or USA accept more students than France in “Elite Colleges” like Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, ENA… For example, the annual student intake in Oxford and Cambridge : 7000 while ENA and Polytechnique : 480. For that reason alone, I believe that France is a elitism country.
But in addition, a recent survey found that 84 % of the 546 top executives in France’s 40 biggest companies were graduates of a handful of elite colleges, in a government it’s the same thing…
So to conclude, we can say that almost all the position with high responsibilities are occupating by the same kind of person, and I don’t agree with that, I would like person with more imagination or creativity, not a “machine person” like numbers politicians…

hi everybody
Elitism is an attitude that is to facilitate the inclusion of persons found to be the best and which tends to devalue the rest of the population.
in fact, France has the reputation of having one of the most elite educational systems in the world , because of the schools. In 2010, a high critical current pushed the government to require of them a relaxation of their alleged elitism , aiming to open their doors to a larger share of the company, in the manner of an affirmative French action.
In educational matters , elitism leads to intense selection of candidates, refutes the argument that it could succeed without obtaining a very high degree , and denies based on a social determinism : according to its proponents , if a person is truly gifted she manages to get into the elite, regardless of its real possibilities , otherwise is that she lacked the required qualifications.

Hey everyone,
My own experience and knowledge are not sufficient for now to judge, whether France is an elitist state or not, but even if yes – what's wrong with it ? There is a limited number of elite universities and instituts, with a limited nmber of places, that makes it simple to find best of the best students, the most talented and motivated (and hard-working, as well). After graduation, these students become top-managers, ministers... Why not ? It's quite logical that the most clever people should rule the country. And these schools make this process of calibration rather fair.
However, the dark side of this elitism is a possible demotivation of others and perfectionism : if you're not in the best school/university, you will not succeed in life (but I don't know whether it's true).
I also feel that even not prestigious professions need clever and talented people in order to have a prosperous and harmonious society.

It’s true that today famous businesses are lead by “brilliant student”. I say between quotes because lot of students who outgoing of this “Grandes Ecoles” are training by professor and others. We know today that if you go out of one of this class you will find easily a job. It the case of l’ENA for the politic or Polytechnique to run great businesses but I don’t think that is bad for the country. Peoples have been made to create/develop and others for manage. To each is own. You know already before finish your studies that this people will trust some positions.
And to conclude on this topic I think money is not really an obstacle to enter on these schools. The must tough is to make a place for itself among the others and accept their eyes. Because the amount of registration is not very high compared by the United States. So finally, I consider we need people like that but it would be wise to offer more posts to strong responsibilities for people outcome of the others trainings like us.

In France, according to the book of Mr. Gumbel he said that in recent years it has taken power elite of gobernants who are products of elitism education system. The discourse of meritocracy which born from the French revolution's spirit and like it is underline in the motto oficio the French Republic "Liberty, Equality and Fraternity", it has been used to create a fake delusion of inclusion of every citizen so they can aspirate to hold a large opinion, but the truth is that they have created elite institutions where they receive an important profile of persons and then they put a dominant group to the power.Elistism becomes in a problem because the unhappy about the classification of people according the type of education grows and has led french every day to less confidence in their leaders, that is why that it must be a solution in the way that the fake delusion of meritocracy becomes in the truly whish of Equality, Fraternity and Liberty.

In his book,Peter Gumble points out elitisme in France.
French « Grandes Ecoles » are considered as tool to build men and women assigned to high places in the government, and also in the CAC40 corporations. The ENA and the HEC are one of the most pretigious.
Only 100 people graduate from the « ENA » in a year, in comparaison, Oxfort produce 6.000 graduates in a year.
This reduce the chance for the all population to reach an certain category of job.
Modern elitism goes through eduction, in the past it was concerning nobility and money.
The « Grandes Ecoles » bring a particular method of education that push the students in deep analysis. The creation skills are not exploited. This produces a certain type of individuals that might not be the best at their places.
Elitism spreads at the entire education system in France. French students are not directed in the same directions than other europeean students, in term of objectives and results.

France has a system which allows him(her) to choose and to format these leaders. These leaders in all the domains: politics(policy) administration staff and the leaders(managers) of large companies. Indeed we notice that these leaders come from big institutions, they come from the same educational environment(middle). Before being a colleague they were a classmate. And well they come from the same social background. To occupy certain posts there is somewhere an imperative to be to go to certain institutions such as the ENA(NATIONAL ADMINISTRATION SCHOOL), of business school or engineers.
I think that the diploma is important but the experience(experiment) also is important that is needed a good balance between both.
Maybe that the problem is that it has can not enough diversity in the choice of the managing there. I think that the diversity can allow a rather good overall view, to bring solutions adapted to various problems that can meet companies or administrations

I find some passages of Peter Gumbel enough strict with France (especially for someone who contributes to this system, in being teacher at Sciences Po…). But, in the background, his message is true and I’m agree with him.

It’s right when he said that not only this system create an elite goal but also it leaves a very disaffected population who never made it. Indeed, lot of French people feel reject by this system. It’s also right when he right that  chances of succeeding in a job in France are based on how good you were at school.

But, when he says that Britain has become much more socially diverse in terms of its mindset and a big difference is the professional ability: I’m a little septic ...

Don’t forget that in UK, they have Oxford and Cambridge. Us, we have Ena, Normale Sup, Sciences Po... They have “crested” universities, very expensive. Us, we have “big” schools, free, where (normally) accessible for everybody, subject to have the competitive exam. (I don’t speak of special favour, but it’s a form of elitist). The result is the same In UK and France : those who govern us are massively out of the elite schools.
We also can also mention Eton, a luxury school where passes princes William and Harry, Prime Minister (David Cameron), etc.

To conclude, it is right that France gives more power to its elite, but also (to a lesser extent) true in the UK. What can we do to solve this problem ? not much things   .

A British study has measured the extent of the phenomenon of elitist in UK :
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/347915/Elitist_Britain_-_Final.pdf

in my opinion ,the competence France’s education system has built a system for selecting
even if France have a very good educative système but also a selection very hard ,determines from an early age at school, facilitate by network and heir of full money for the greater part , however it is unacceptable proceed arising out of a Country and land of liberty and equality .
with President holand and almost half the ministers in the present government are products of ENA or another elite institution for example Sciences Po, that condition creating a limited circule whom dominate political and business power ,indeed social circle political have do the same class , the same educational pathway ,and with ladder limited enven nonexistent social advancement such as Lula in bresil could’nt be appointed to post of power in France .

Julien R wrote:

To conclude, it is right that France gives more power to its elite, but also (to a lesser extent) true in the UK. What can we do to solve this problem ? not much things   .

A British study has measured the extent of the phenomenon of elitist in UK :
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/347915/Elitist_Britain_-_Final.pdf

Thanks for this link Julien. I'll use this in the future.

Admin wrote:

Julien R wrote:

To conclude, it is right that France gives more power to its elite, but also (to a lesser extent) true in the UK. What can we do to solve this problem ? not much things   .

A British study has measured the extent of the phenomenon of elitist in UK :
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/347915/Elitist_Britain_-_Final.pdf

Thanks for this link Julien. I'll use this in the future.

You're welcome !