Fourth topic alternative

by **Admin** Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:22 am

Hi guys and gals, just in case you're about to wish you had some English this week I'm going to put up 3 alternatives for you to discuss - as always you can just comment on 1 , 2 or all 3.

So this week it's the French Education System:

What are it's strong and weak points? What changes would you like to see to it? Are there some subjects where teachers could be partially replaced or aided by computers or technology? Do traditional school buildings need a rethink? Is English a waste of time and resources on some university courses? Or anything else you want to say...

by JulietteLegrand Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:28 pm

The PISA classification ranked the French Education system at the 25th place in 2014. Far ahead French system there are European and Asian systems much more efficient than our. French students are out of step with the rest of the world, french system is too attach to teach theorically and it should teach knowledge and teach to be able to cross differents topics and not just repeat lessons. The first seven of the classification are Asian systems, the reason why is that teachers are better trained to managed their students. This is the first and major reproach that is made to the french system. According to some journalist, teacher's training isn't more appropriate and their pedagogy need to a rethink.
To me, french education system is too general, and too long, I would have appreciated to choose what lesson to follow like in germany where student can choose what they want to study. However the strong point of the french system is that students can built their cursus with those general studies they can change along the way.
About English lessons.. we have lessons of english since elementary school, and we're still not able to have a real conversation with english people or with erasmus people who are better than us and pratically bilingual. I think that the french education system haven't got the good way to teach english compared to our neighbours european.

by Anja.Metz Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:42 am

A very interesting topic for me, since I can compare - at least at the university level - the different styles of teaching to another country.
What I have experienced so far is that teachers in France have a lot more authority than in Germany.
Going to school in Germany, group work and presentations were always a must-do for all our teachers. Also, our classes were not as strict I have the feeling. Regarding the English course, I have to say that our English classes are quite similar to the one we are experiencing right now. We have to talk A LOT. We also do a lot of listening comprehension and watch many films in English during the course. Also, it is one of the most important courses at school, having the same amount of courses as maths or German.

But our classes are shorter, normally. Even at university, we always have classes for 90 minutes and a break of 30 minutes after. So coming to France and having courses for 2 or even 3 hours was kind of shocking at first.

But I think, France has a different approach on education, which is not bad. In Germany, a lot of people do not take University seriously since it is possible never to go to a course and just write the exam at the end. But that is not how to learn for your future, I think.

by Léa martineau Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:08 pm

First, the French education system can be described like a universal system. The school career is accessible to almost all the students. In French, the school fees are not expensive. Even in university, the school fees stay reasonable unlike in the United States where the school fees can reach a large sum. Students get into important debt. They will repay their debts for the rest of their life. Besides, in the French education system, there are a lot of others wellbeing measures. In our system, the school fees give to the students an access to medicine, sports and assurance. This is a favorable system for studding and the students will begin their life in better condition.
Yet, there are some criticisms to do about the French education system. I will speak about the fact that in university the professors can be just teacher or also researcher. It can create difficulties because, from my point of view, to be a teacher is a job. They have to learn how to be a good instructor. Some of them teach because they do not have the choice and then they do not always a good job. From my point of view, they have to have the wishes to become a teacher. The university should check sometimes if their teachers have the time to teach properly.
To conclude, there are a lot of good things in the French education system but we cannot say that it is perfect because there is always progress to do and we can see that it do not suit to all the students.

by Aline Chérasse Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:56 pm

Currently, the French education system has few strengths. Certainly, there are students with very good results. However there are very few and the gap between good pupils and average pupils is becoming bigger. Thus, a major weakness of the system, it is the academic inequalities between students. The system is elitist : either one succeeds or one fails. The education system should further assist struggling students with school tutoring in order to reduce these inequalities and provide everyone with the means to succeed. Instead of that, the ones who don't quickly understand the courses are left, are demotivated and fail.

So I think that the French education system needs to be completely rethought because we are in a fast changing world. The media and technologies change our perception of the world and the way we learn. The problem is that in France the foundations of the system doesn't change. The pedagogy of most teachers is now outdated, is not suitable ... So I think we should update the teaching methods in France.

Moreover, we live in a world where new technologies are omnipresent. However, I don't think that teachers can be replaced by computers. Human contact is very important and I think it's necessary for the efficient student learning. You can't be motivated to learn if you have a computer in front of us. We need a person that makes us want to learn and encourages us to have good results.

About English, France is very late and we can see that clearly when Erasmus students are beside us. I think that since college, school trains us only for writing. The problem is that a language, it's spoken. In my case, for example, I acquired a lot of vocabulary, I understand what I am hearing ... but I am unable to answer and construct phrases ... Words don't come to my mind and I'm stuck (which is annoying in conversation!). So I think we should work orally (as is the case this year) much earlier at school, watch movies more often when we're in college, do more oral comprehension ...

by Arnaud Guicheteau Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:55 pm

I think the French education system is pretty good before the "baccalauréat ". One of the weakest point is higher education. There are a lot of choices. First, I think too many people can access to higher education. There is a too high failure rate in first year at the university (about 40% at least). These people shouldn't have attended the university because they're too weak and they lose a year. To be more selective, I think we should increase the level of difficulty of the baccalauréat. If we authorise a student to attend university, we have to be sure he has the capacities to understand the courses.

On the other side, business schools, engineering and CPGE select people but education is not free contrary to the university. It's a pity because they don't select only the better students, but also those one who can afford. However, they often have smaller classes than universities. In deed, it's harder to get a good education if we are too numerous.

I would personally like to have smaller groups and to be able to choose our courses like in Anglo-Saxon system. To speak english better (because the french people are not very good at english), I think we should have at least 3 hours a week of english plus some others courses entirely in english.

by Mathilde Rigagneau Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:21 pm

The French education system is far from the best. Although financially egalitarian, almost free schooling, it is far from being in skills. The system wants to get children into a mold. Those who don't adapt quickly picks. Teachers are obliged to implement a program, often exceeded, which no longer corresponds to today's needs. The school doesn't reflect the intelligence, just the ability to memorize the elements, which for the most part do we serve more after. In addition to that young teachers are increasingly outdated, and parents are no longer on their side but this child, which doesn't help matters.
The theory is far too important in the French education system. As for the English, the French are extremely behind in foreign languages. We are taught words, irregular verbs, conjugation, grammar. But very little listening, and practical exercises. I regret having to wait university to find English classes more lively.
As for technology French schools gradually trying this upgrade. I don't think a computer can replace a teacher. However today there're interactive whiteboards, and tablets that could fit most attractive courses.

by Julien Micard Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:45 pm

I think that today we need to be honest and say that our education system is no longer a good one and all the indicators show it… I’m not going to talk about the role of the teachers because even if I think they should try to show in their teaching the same commitment they show for their reasearches, the biggest problem of our system is not there…

First of all, our economy has massively changed over the past thirty years. At that time, people who only had the equivalent of today’s baccalaureat could already run a business or join a company and quickly progress hierarchically. Today it’s not the same thing at all, the economic crisis is hitting strongly and there are way too much job seekers. This excess of competition leads to a massive increase of unemployment and people who have a bac+5 sometimes can’t find a job…

Then, about the education itself we can see that today unfortunately the main goal of the government is to make savings, so as a matter of fact they don’t want reduplications anymore and the baccalaureat is now no more than a big joke but they are happy because they can now almost reach 90% of success. But then of course, once the students who didn’t really deserve to have the baccalaureat are plunged into advanced education, most of them massively fail and they lose a year for nothing. Moreover, I think that this increase of the success rate at baccaulaureat will lead to a setback of the attraction for professional studies because everybody will tend to think they have the necessary skills to join university studies or other general advanced studies whereas in fact they don’t and they could blossom more in professional studies..

At the end, we assist at a levelling down of the educational level (the average english level is the perfect exemple) and the problem of inequalities is nothing but solved, even if of course basic sociology tells us that the main factor of these inequalities are both the social and cultural background of each young person. I may be pessimistic but I think the situation is going from bad to worse, and when I see that our minister of education wants to avoid marks and set up colors instead (green, yellow, red) so it would be more "fair" I don’t think the situation will be solved soon.

by Kevin G Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:34 am

I'm agree with "Mathilde" but not at all with Arnaud. Especially about this "I think the French education system is pretty good before the "baccalauréat ". For me, the education system before the baccalaureat is the big weakness of the french education. And, this is the main reason, also with a problem of course choice after the baccalaureat, that many students failed during hight schools.
Generally, the level of education in primary, secondary school and college is too low. Morevover, The weakness of French Education System come from to so many bad teachers who don't understand the student, or don't know what "teaching skill" word is.
In short, we need to copy a bit the scandinavian education system which is one of the best education system with the South korea education system.

by Clement Luciano Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:34 pm

mathilde all told..... thank you.
The levels decrease because the French political choose to have a "baccalaureat" for all, then the level drops year after year.
Either we want to encourage the best elements, which is to make a so elitist discriminatory policy or we try to maintain a school system a roughly equal like today.
Ministers are unable to reform anything. They massacred programs such as history and focus how to assess rather than how to learn.

by ROSSARD Rachel Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:55 pm

For the key points of the education system I would quote the free education and the multitude of assistant for the having difficulty pupils. For the weak points, the difficulty in the adaptation of the technologies and the recurring change of courses of study. I think that these changes influenced a lot the practices of the teaching. The technology in exceeded a lot the teachers who during then formations were little prepared to include in their courses these new tools. Also, the change cleans courses of study urged the teachers to see again their courses. For some, it asks for a lot of work and they are not still in the point on them new courses. And it the pupils feel it very fast.
For English, I find that the French education system knew how to prepare the pupils very early to learn English. But for my part I think that would have in complement subjects such as the math or the history (or other) have to be courses which we realize in English to get acquainted more with the language.

by Amélie Berton Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:47 pm

I could hold forth for hours on this subject… I have chosen to focus on what it is, in my opinion, the most important thing about French higher education, both in a positive and a negative way.

In France, there is no selection to go to University. Anybody graduated from high school can enter University and choose the courses he wants. This is at the same time a strong and a weak point of the French Education System.

In a spirit of democratisation in Higher Education, it sounds amazing: anybody can study at College, at a low cost. It’s a blessing for all French Students! Take a look at the fees in American or British Universities… It’s scary! The French Education System guarantee the access to higher education and it is really important.

On the other hand, it implies many issues. The first consequence is an excessive number of students in Universities, impacting the studying conditions. Registration at University costs almost nothing. So, who pays for our studies? The State, thanks to taxes. And the problem is that the increase in the higher education budget doesn’t follow the rise in the number of students. Universities have the obligation to welcome every students, but doesn’t have the financial resources necessary. It directly impacts the studying conditions and the education quality. It also causes illegal selection. For example, in Poitiers, there is a random draw to enter the Faculty of Sport, which is not legal… Are random draws really a solution? I don’t think so!
Moreover, no selection at the entrance doesn’t mean no selection at all. You have to pass exams each year to have the possibility to go on. And there is a selection to access to the fourth and fifth years (master 1 & 2). The system is not that good.
Finally, a lot of students are failing at University. Of course, it is an indirect consequence of the “no selection policy”, but I think it is more a course choices problem. Everybody cannot be good at everything and it’s important to help students find their way. This is supposed to be the career advisers’ job when they meet the students in high school. But I believe they don’t do this job properly. They are not aware of all the possibilities offered by higher education and most of them are bad counsellors. They we’ll say: “You are a great student, go to a Business School!”, or “With these grades, you should definitely go to College”… So that’s it? Bad students in University, correct students in “BTS” and great students in “Grandes Ecoles”?

If I was Minister of Higher Education, I will work on two things: “orientation” and innovative methods of learning. For example, I think technologies and computers represent a real potential to face the excessive number of students problem. Concerning “orientation”, it is all about helping student finding their way. Of course, higher education has other weak points but I think these issues are worth being treated as a priority. What’s more, improving these two aspects could definitely solve other problems which are directly connected.

by **Admin** Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:04 am

Amélie Berton wrote:
I could hold forth for hours on this subject… I have chosen to focus on what it is, in my opinion, the most important thing about French higher education, both in a positive and a negative way.

In France, there is no selection to go to University. Anybody graduated from high school can enter University and choose the courses he wants. This is at the same time a strong and a weak point of the French Education System.

In a spirit of democratisation in Higher Education, it sounds amazing: anybody can study at College, at a low cost. It’s a blessing for all French Students! Take a look at the fees in American or British Universities… It’s scary! The French Education System guarantee the access to higher education and it is really important.

On the other hand, it implies many issues. The first consequence is an excessive number of students in Universities, impacting the studying conditions. Registration at University costs almost nothing. So, who pays for our studies? The State, thanks to taxes. And the problem is that the increase in the higher education budget doesn’t follow the rise in the number of students. Universities have the obligation to welcome every students, but doesn’t have the financial resources necessary. It directly impacts the studying conditions and the education quality. It also causes illegal selection. For example, in Poitiers, there is a random draw to enter the Faculty of Sport, which is not legal… Are random draws really a solution? I don’t think so!
Moreover, no selection at the entrance doesn’t mean no selection at all. You have to pass exams each year to have the possibility to go on. And there is a selection to access to the fourth and fifth years (master 1 & 2). The system is not that good.
Finally, a lot of students are failing at University. Of course, it is an indirect consequence of the “no selection policy”, but I think it is more a course choices problem. Everybody cannot be good at everything and it’s important to help students find their way. This is supposed to be the career advisers’ job when they meet the students in high school. But I believe they don’t do this job properly. They are not aware of all the possibilities offered by higher education and most of them are bad counsellors. They we’ll say: “You are a great student, go to a Business School!”, or “With these grades, you should definitely go to College”… So that’s it? Bad students in University, correct students in “BTS” and great students in “Grandes Ecoles”?

If I was Minister of Higher Education, I will work on two things: “orientation” and innovative methods of learning. For example, I think technologies and computers represent a real potential to face the excessive number of students problem. Concerning “orientation”, it is all about helping student finding their way. Of course, higher education has other weak points but I think these issues are worth being treated as a priority. What’s more, improving these two aspects could definitely solve other problems which are directly connected.

I agree with everything that you have written.

by Jade Candela Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:52 am

In 2015 in France, labourers/workers represent 16% of the workforce. Even though we don’t talk much about them.
In 2008 there were 1% of son of laborer that achieved to go to university.

“Story of French Education,
In 1792 after the French revolution: the real aim was to create a real equal society. And they thought they should do it through school. That’s why it was 5 plans of education being discussed. Since then, only one has been kept. It’s the one of Nicolas de Condorcet. But the problem of this one is that it doesn’t fulfil the aim of giving the basics / (minimum)knowledge. This type of education say that it does. But in reality it doesn’t. It’s a type of education giving the maximum knowledge. Actually, this school is design to make anyone go as far and as fast as he can to the top of his mental abilities without being blocked by anyone.

And People said at this time that the risks of this type of education was to make a society where inequality would be based on knowledges. And that is where we are today.
So Condorcet answered “yes it will create an elite but it’s okay if this elite put itself at the service of the nation.” Anyways we get around the problem of this education by using the “meritocracy”.

Another plan of education was the one of Lepeletier de Saint-Fargeau. He said that we should create a pedagogy where we brake people who learn too fast. In the aim of making the whole group evaluating at the same rhythm to the same level. In fact, we have to avoid that the rich to learn too fast. It can seem choking nowadays. But some systems do it today through the “brake pedagogy” for example by giving marks to a whole group and then everyone have to help each other to get a good mark. It’s a type of education where you don’t try to rank the students by giving them marks between 0 and 20.
So today we are using the Condorce’s one. And everyone says that Condorce’s school is creating equality but it’s not, it’s creating inequalities.

For example: An American study made a class of “special pupils” (very smart pupils) and they didn’t tell the teacher. So the teacher created questions and type of exams to make a differentiation between students. And so at the end of the year, it was a third of the student having very good marks, a third having medium grad and a third having low marks. And the teacher just did her job, she just ranked the student even though they were “exceptional pupils”, she just found a way to create a hierarchy between students. Could we imagine a teacher who gives the best mark to everyone? We would say it’s a bad teacher no? So she did her job. And it shows that this kind of school creates inequality.
So this school is creating a hierarchy but it says that it doesn’t. And that’s the problem of this school.

There is also the French “baccalauréat” which is made to stop poor people to get to high education. It’s a way of making a selection because if you are under 10 of average, then you don’t get to university. Which is actually where the real interesting learning is supposed to starts because its where you learn all the interesting explications of what you learned at school. So under the 10 average the poor are going away and will never get the opportunity to access university. And then from 10 to 14: you can go to university and then above it’s what we call “grandes écoles” which is French private business school.” (extract of the show “Inculture 2”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri8Lk1sCp_E of Franck Lepage that I tried to translate from the French so sorry for the mistakes. Show that I totally recommend as it is very interesting well explained.)
Anyway, so we get around the problem with “meritocracy”. But meritocracy is not compatible with equality of knowledge.

And I believe that maybe the problem of the French education is that it wants to make people believe it’s a system that creates equality (mainly with a free or nearly free access to school and university which cost a lot to the state) whereas it does not at all.

And I just wanted to add that, maybe a solution to the high level of failing in 1st year of university is to motivate student to get agap year, just to do what they want and give them the time to develop a real willingness to go to university and learn new things to get the job they want. This idea of gap year is quite common in other coutries.

I could have talk more about this topic but I think this is already too long, sorry.

by **Admin** Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:29 am

Thaks Jade, that was interesting. The idea of a group mark is intriguing and I agree that a gap year - as long as it is used for experience gaining is a great idea. I didn't go straight to uni and the maturity a gap year or years gives is wonderful from a teaching perspective.

by Sarah Blanchard-Wall Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:06 pm

So this week it's the French Education System:
The French Education System was created in the goal to express the Republic values. So, Education System must be egalitarian, secular and an idea of brotherhood into each people.
In this goal, the school is public and obligatory to all children between 6 to 16 years.
School is accessible at all children by is cost who is in theory free. But all people know that many things are necessary to study. But it's an essential principal of French Education System.
The French educational system is highly centralized and organized, with many subdivisions like primary education,secondary education, higher education...
It's depends of the ministry of education. Each region and department has competencies to act in favor of school. The school program is national but some department has better school, better teacher... Therefore we see that the system is not very egalitarian. Moreover, that Aline says, the system is elitist. Children "bad" at school are not the main preoccupation of main teacher. The rhythm of lessons is based on best children.
Moreover, when your parents have money you can go in the school that you want like private school, and dispose to the best teaching. I regret that because some student have real competences and can't develop this competences at them maximum.
So, the French Education System, as strong point and weak point... It can be improve , of course....

by **Admin** Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:11 pm

Sarah Blanchard-Wall wrote:So this week it's the French Education System:
The French Education System was created in the goal to express the Republic values. So, Education System must be egalitarian, secular and an idea of brotherhood into each people.
In this goal, the school is public and obligatory to all children between 6 to 16 years.
School is accessible at all children by is cost who is in theory free. But all people know that many things are necessary to study. But it's an essential principal of French Education System.
The French educational system is highly centralized and organized, with many subdivisions like primary education,secondary education, higher education...
It's depends of the ministry of education. Each region and department has competencies to act in favor of school. The school program is national but some department has better school, better teacher... Therefore we see that the system is not very egalitarian. Moreover, that Aline says, the system is elitist. Children "bad" at school are not the main preoccupation of main teacher. The rhythm of lessons is based on best children.
Moreover, when your parents have money you can go in the school that you want like private school, and dispose to the best teaching. I regret that because some student have real competences and can't develop this competences at them maximum.
So, the French Education System, as strong point and weak point... It can be improve , of course....

Do you think that more teachers and streaming would improve the system or do the targets within the subjects need to be re-organized or could we use technology tfor some educational areas freeing up teachers for other areas?

by Matthieu Godet Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:18 pm

Jade Candela wrote:
And People said at this time that the risks of this type of education was to make a society where inequality would be based on knowledges. And that is where we are today.
So Condorcet answered “yes it will create an elite but it’s okay if this elite put itself at the service of the nation.” Anyways we get around the problem of this education by using the “meritocracy”.

Another plan of education was the one of Lepeletier de Saint-Fargeau. He said that we should create a pedagogy where we brake people who learn too fast. In the aim of making the whole group evaluating at the same rhythm to the same level. In fact, we have to avoid that the rich to learn too fast. It can seem choking nowadays. But some systems do it today through the “brake pedagogy” for example by giving marks to a whole group and then everyone have to help each other to get a good mark. It’s a type of education where you don’t try to rank the students by giving them marks between 0 and 20.
So today we are using the Condorce’s one. And everyone says that Condorce’s school is creating equality but it’s not, it’s creating inequalities.

For example: An American study made a class of “special pupils” (very smart pupils) and they didn’t tell the teacher. So the teacher created questions and type of exams to make a differentiation between students. And so at the end of the year, it was a third of the student having very good marks, a third having medium grad and a third having low marks. And the teacher just did her job, she just ranked the student even though they were “exceptional pupils”, she just found a way to create a hierarchy between students. Could we imagine a teacher who gives the best mark to everyone? We would say it’s a bad teacher no? So she did her job. And it shows that this kind of school creates inequality.
So this school is creating a hierarchy but it says that it doesn’t. And that’s the problem of this school.

There is also the French “baccalauréat” which is made to stop poor people to get to high education. It’s a way of making a selection because if you are under 10 of average, then you don’t get to university. Which is actually where the real interesting learning is supposed to starts because its where you learn all the interesting explications of what you learned at school. So under the 10 average the poor are going away and will never get the opportunity to access university. And then from 10 to 14: you can go to university and then above it’s what we call “grandes écoles” which is French private business school.” (extract of the show “Inculture 2”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri8Lk1sCp_E of Franck Lepage that I tried to translate from the French so sorry for the mistakes. Show that I totally recommend as it is very interesting well explained.)
Anyway, so we get around the problem with “meritocracy”. But meritocracy is not compatible with equality of knowledge.

And I believe that maybe the problem of the French education is that it wants to make people believe it’s a system that creates equality (mainly with a free or nearly free access to school and university which cost a lot to the state) whereas it does not at all.

And I just wanted to add that, maybe a solution to the high level of failing in 1st year of university is to motivate student to get agap year, just to do what they want and give them the time to develop a real willingness to go to university and learn new things to get the job they want. This idea of gap year is quite common in other coutries.

I could have talk more about this topic but I think this is already too long, sorry.

I just prefer comment one post instead making blablabla ... (more constructive imo) so I want to argue on your answer Jade (especially two points).

I'm half agree on the method to evaluate students, on one hand evaluate groups instead make a ladder yeah that's a way to motivate each idividual. But on another hand, sometimes we tend to have difficulties on some groups (due to the human factor people don't get the same level on effort) : I know that we always say "In your future job you won't have to choose your partners, that's random blablabla" OR "You've to deal with it, most important is to participate" but let's say sometimes we're not on the same conditions and it's hard to arrange on the same level each group (because yeah in general you don't make difference between people but groups, so that's just a global way to handle the problem).

About the french Bac I'm not really agree this creates inequality, at least it doesn't make sense nowadays. This was more difficult with Bac B, C, ... (old system in fact) This is just a step to pass (this diploma has no really value in reality : meaning that's not relevant to put it on your cover letter except when you're student at the begining of your active life) but when we see how it's easier to get it now ... even if you've to resit your exam you've your chances to validate it honnestly ...
But no worries, I am agree on one point we should change this diploma (I'm just not agree for the same reason). It's like the "Département" system also created by "Napoléon", "Bac" was also an old (I should say dusty isn't ?) invention but as our country is conservative we probably won't see any change on this system that is a no sense.

Also about the gap year I've a canadian's friend that told me they've an additionnal year in university, it's more a "transition year" that permits to make the link between high school and university. We could imagine a system like this that permits a better integrations for students (but also put it as an option for students that still want to make a degree in 3 years).

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