Discussion subject 1 - Freedom and the Burkini

This is the thread to reply to for the first discussion. What is "Freedom" in France? Are you "Free"? Has the idea of "liberté" changed over the years? What do you think about the recent Burkini bans on some French beaches? Have these bans changed your thinking on "Equality" in France? What other bans are in place in France? How does Freedom in France compare to other countries? These and many other questions are yours to debate. Have fun!

From my point of view, the notion of freedom is a notion which is inked in the values of France, the word appears in our currency slogan. Today we have more freedom than the time of our grandparents, or others countrie in the world. It's a value that has made only evolve over time, it is a very important value of our democracy. I think that in France, each person is free to make what he wants, and each person has the possibility to follow his own will, and his own faiths. However, there are laws which are there to limit our radiuses of action, like the decree which was applied in certain cities of France about the burkini. Certain behaviors or customs are considered as noncompliant with the values of the republic to according to certain people, what makes that there is some debate on certain subject. The freedom remains a sensitive subject in our country. Because as country of human rights, France has to show the notion of freedom.

Totally agree with Max number 1    ! Regarding the “burkini” issue, I think women should be able to dress how they please at the beach or wherever they are. To my mind, it’s not because a woman wears a bikini that means she is freer than another woman wearing a veil or anything religious stuff. I disagree with Manuel Valls’ opinion who said that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. He speaks about the enslavement of women however he endorses the burkini ban, therefore he supports politicians who forced women to wear what they (the politicians) want. Where is the freedom?  Just remember that he’s a SOCIALIST and the French Prime Minister… Well... Moreover, although France is a secular country this is not an excuse for that.  For instance, I’m not sure if we see a nun at the beach, wearing her usual clothes, she will get arrested because she wears religious clothes… So, in my opinion, unfortunately the "burkini" issue is just a question of religion and I definitely do not agree with the practice of stripping women at gunpoint and arresting them for their beliefs.

I agree with you Max number 1 that Freedom is becoming a sensitive subject in France and you Max number 2 on the fact that our Freedom is nowadays deteriorated because of a religion matter. Futhermore I noticed that the lack of liberties has been worsen from the terrorism threat and the Charlie Hebdo attack. Indeed, that's why only France and Belgium passed a law to ban women to wear the full headscarf because they are the most two affected countries by terrorism. However can we be a country with less and less liberties in the name of security and fear ? To my mind no. Actually by doing this we're becoming like the United States who have thousands of laws allowing surveillance techniques. Moreover let's not forget about the Freedom of speech , such a taboo in France! Nowadays, we're witnessing a thinking homogenisation and a restriction of freedom of speech from the journalists or in our newspapers. Moreover how many journalists have been fired because they had cutting words ? Too much (hello Patrick Poivre d'Arvor!) Futhermore, in France we can be sued if a journalist dares to say what he really thinks on a controversial subject...

Noémie Pieruccioni wrote: Indeed, that's why only France and Belgium passed a law to ban women to wear the full headscarf

Isn't this also a very sexist ban?

I just express my point of views as a foreigner. Liberty is the first word in the motto in France, which means it's very important to french. In my opinion, the freedom is an idea that people can express their opinions and they can do what they like. For example, the french people often make a demonstration against the government（although it's not useful sometimes), which is impossible or very rare in China. As a foreigner in France, I
think the french people have much freedom，after all you have YouTube,Facebook haha. The idea of liberty evolves over the years . However, the basic of its meaning isn't changed. There isn't an absolute freedom. You can't do something that will hurt someone. I mean that your freedom is limited by others' rights.
Besides, i think it's unfair to prohibit Burkini on the beach. Once I went to a swimming pool with my sister and her children. We were told to not near the pool just because we didn't wear bathing suits. What an unimaginable rule! Moreover We wore normal clothes at that time! So I feel pity for the muslim woman. They respect their belief, which is not accepted by the government. The government of France did that just because of the fear of terrorist attacks! As the commentaries above, the freedom is becoming a sensitive subject in France . However, what the government should do is strengthen the security public,rather than vented the angry on these innocent women.

Admin wrote:

Noémie Pieruccioni wrote: Indeed, that's why only France and Belgium passed a law to ban women to wear the full headscarf  

Isn't this also a very sexist ban?

Of course! I dont' think the government by baning the wear of headscarf thought just one second that this act would be sexist ! Unfortunately it is! However in the muslism religion, most of the time it's women who are wearing a religion symbol, well in France at least! But wearing a muslim symbol doesn't mean you're dangerous, extremist or whatever! So yes this ban is sexist and is a violation of women's freedom.

I personaly think that people should have the right to wear what they want (no matter where they live). Well considering what is happening in France and around the world (islamist terrorism) i also understand why the French government has choosen to ban this particular swimwear (burkini). A burkini looks a lot like a "burkha" (the traditional islamic garment) and people wearing it are unfortunately considered by others as "potential terrorists" (= Muslins). Stigmatisation has always been a big problem in our society. For example i had to register burkini complaints during my summer job at a holiday village. Some holidaymakers and owners did not understand why the burkini was allowed in the pool areal. They wanted a burkini ban in the park.

looks pretty to me.

Looking at these bans objectively, firstly, the French government troubled by terrorism and maintain a sharp vigilance, which leading to the control of some behaviors involving religious custom. Secondly, those who support the ban think that the Burkini is a challenge to the two traditional values: the liberation of women and the social solidarity. From my point of view, I think this bans is a narrow explain for the words ''freedom'' and ''culture''.Under the premise that we respect the law and observe public order, we should be able to do whatever we want to do. Therefore, the style of female swimsuit which we can select freely shouldn't become a political issue. Chinese traditional views insist the ''Harmony in diversity'' which is also a concept for treating different cultures. In fact, the Burkini is the embodiment of this idea. However, the freedom is a concept very complex. It's normal that it will change depending on the era and social environment. It will develop with constant fictions.

I agree with what Maxime number 1 said about the fact that our freedom has evolved since the generation of our grand-parents and that nowadays we have more freedom than ever. In comparison with other countries, I think that we have the same level of freedom than the other over-developed countries. Most of the time people don’t realise it, they don’t realise that we are very lucky to be able to express ourselves, to do more or less whatever we want, to dress as we want, and so on. Moreover, as France is a secular country, we do not have someone above us to tell us what we have to do, dress, read or listen to it. For example, in Iran, which is an Islamic country, few years ago there was a lot of freedom, but recently there has been a step backward as regard to people’s freedom.
As regard to the burkini, I think that politicians should work on problems that are more important than the burkini one. The burkini looks like a diving suit, politician should also arrest diving people in that case. I also agree with Maxime number 2 on the fact that women should be able to wear whatever they want and that if a nun arrives on the beach, shall we arrest her too? Years ago, there was the bikini problem, women were getting arrested because they were not wearing enough clothes on themselves and now they are getting arrested because they are wearing too much clothes??? Where is the logic in this situation…?
I also agree on what Noémie said about the fact that France is doing all this fuss just because it is about the Islamic religion.

From my point of view, this topic is emblematic. We have a lot of freedom in France. However, acceptance of the other is difficult. Many people are from "old school". They don't accept Muslim religion. As we can see in the Declaration of Human Rights: " The freedom of some ends where someone else's begins".
I think, the burkini isn't different from the required surfer. Why surfers have the right? The burkini is important in their religion. For example, why bother a cross more than a veil ? France is not open enough to new religions. There are too racist for all citizens to be free.

Quite a controversial subject!!

I agree with Morgane, I don't see the difference between surfers clothes and burkini... During the summer, I saw a television report on TF1. A lifeguard informed audience that's dangerous to swim with a burkini. If you have a problem in the water, you can sink quickly. I don't check that out.  

I don't think that will be easy due to terrorism... Many of French people confuse terrorism with Muslim religion... Burkini is a debate which hides other one.

As Tatiana said just before, the islamist religion is often become confused with terrorism. That's why lot of people and politicians are against this "clothes" but we can explain that. I have a sad "story" to tell you. Where I live, there is a huge shopping center. As you can imagine, there is are a lot of policemen inside. One day, a women with a Burka went inside to buy something (until yere, it is very normal). After few minutes, the policemen noticed that this women looked weird in her expression and the way to walk was not "normal". The policemen decided to speak to this women to know why she is stressed, and look nervous. After to go to the security office with her, he discovered a kalachnikov under her clothes.... Thanks to the policemen, we avoided an important attack. I know by a friend of mine who work in this shopping center... So, even if we don't have to do a mixture between those different things, I can understand this huge problem in France. To finish I think all people can do what they want to do because we are FREE but with the actual situation in the world we always have to be careful.

I agree with all of you, how we can be a freedom country if we can't wear what we want? Muslim women wear that cloth to didn't show their bodies to other like a normal swimming wear because it's what their religion want, no one forced them to wear that cloth, they do what they want. Moreover, It allows them to swim and not just stay on the beach. For me, it's just a cloth, no more and I didn't understand why it embarass some persons. Sadly, in our country (but not only), some people confused the terrorism with muslims while they are two opposite terms. In the Coran (muslim religion book), it's written that kill a person, it's a big sin. So terrorists can't be muslim.
I hope french politician will not take other decision like the law against the burkini. We have a wonderful country, of course we must to protect him but without forgetting his slogan, his devise.

If  we look at it the "burkini" isn't that different from the "facekini", which can be found in China.

It's the reason behind it that differs: the "facekini" is worn in order to prevent the skin from getting tanned while swimming (as in South and East Asia, it's considered a good thing to have a fair skin, especially for women). The "burkini" is worn to stick to some religious belief.

When we talk about freedom there is this saying: "One person's freedom ends where another person's freedom begins". For me it means that you can do whatever you want, as long as you're not hurting someone morally or physically.

Therefore I think there is no reason to forbid women from wearing the "burkini", as anyone should be able to wear what they want and it doesn't hurt anybody. However, I find that some aspects of it are annoying.
I have no problem with Muslim women covering themselves, if it is what they have to do if they want to stick to their religious belief. What I find annoying is the fact that if I were to go to a very strict Muslim country, I would have to cover myself in order to avoid problems, although I do not want to. If we can accept their way of living and usages, then they should be able to accept ours (the same goes for everyone, I'm only talking about Muslims here because we're discussing the "burkini" issue, please don't throw stones at me :p ).

(And walking around with a pair of jeans and a t-shirt never killed anyone  )

Like Ekrem, I'm agree with all of you. Freedom is a complicated signification… If we are too much free, some people can do anything. But we need freedom to be yourself. It is difficult to have the middle.
The Burkini is another debate this is a cultural/religious signification. Politician don’t have to give their opinion about this.

Personally, I think that freedom means that we do what we want and, more particularly, we wear what we want. Prohibiting the Burkini is like prohibiting the rights that, hopefully in France, we have. The real question with this polemic could have been: Is France, and especially the governement, tolerant with muslim people in a context of terrorism? I believe that, unfortunately, some people are doing an amalgam between the religion and the current context.

"Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" prohibit the rights for the muslim women to wear a burkini is in contradiction to the french motto. The respect of the religion is important in a country where the secularism is important as in France. The increase of terrorism attacks in France and in the world increase islamophobia which take place in France. I think the decision to prohibit the burkini can come from to the sad reality: french population is less and less tolerant with the muslim people. Personnally it's important to respect the culture/religion of each person to live together.

I’m personally against exposure to everyone, of all religious symbols whatever they are.

I defend the secular values that seem very strong, particularly in a country where the number of believers and practitioners of any religion is in sharp decline, and where no symbol has to influence someone in his beliefs.

But the question on the Burkini evokes another problem rather than the freedom in my opinion, but that of equality.
It is completely unthinkable to ban the wearing of Burkini while we allow other practitioners to bring a significant holding of religion as is the case in France with the church sisters:



So freedom is an important concept, but I think that equality must be considered.

Sorry, I'm late (just à little bit...). There are a looooooot of posts, so I did'nt read everything (because I'm lazy ^^), but I agree with the fact you don't have to expose your religion. Alright, that's a liberty question too, but I think the others should'nt have to see yours religious orientation. It's your choice, not ours.

I finally found a way to access this site:cheers:
I agree with many things that have been said and explained in previous messages. But my first opinion on the subject of freedom is the same: It was a lot of freedom in France, which is a chance but unfortunately nowadays abnormal situations is life; with terrorism for example. Thus, freedom is seen restraintes.
After, I would to say that everyone has the right to live his life as he wants. If it does not reach us is the main. Let peace reign in this country.

In my opinion, i think burkini is like provocation. Particularly with the terrorism.
Actually a lot of people are scared about that, no one know where the next attempt will be made. So when someone wear the burkini, some people can think under this clothes there is a bomb.
Furthermore, there is a lot of polemic again the burkini and at this moment. Until the end of the polemic, you shouldn't wear this clothes. If you wear it, it's like saying : look at me i don't care about your polemic. It's disrepectfull !!

So for me people shouldn't wear the burkini.