Badr discussion suggestion

What was it? Something about non-binary gender ....

Hi everyone,

This subject isn't really easy this week ! So I think I will help a number of you by putting a definition

"the non-binary kind are people who are nor man nor woman! to be non-binary is especially not to be a girl (the kind that was assigned to her at birth), but not really to feel like a boy either."

Well, that doesn't help you? Clemence told me "DON'T STING MY IDEA", so I don't have much to say ...

I just found something interesting after some research: On Facebook, since 2014, US users can choose from over 50 new genre options, from "agender" to "trans woman" through "Gender Variant" (whose gender varies)!

We have limited information about non-binary people. I just think it must be difficult for them in everyday life. We are a very "gendered" society even if it evolves! Pink is for little girls and blue is for boys.

Hi there,

It is a very interesting and difficult subject this Week! Léa you can talk about whatever you want I am not a tyrant
You are right Léa, we live in a very gendered society where our langage isn't adapted for this part of the population, we Don't have the necessary Tools to describe them and their experiences (feelings etc..). For example, in england people can use the singula of "them" but in France we have to choose between "il" or "elle". Some people have began to use a new word "ille" or "yel" but the problem doesn't disapear because it is a mix between feminine and masculine.

Also, I've read that in US, Facebook users can chose among more than 50 new options of gender such from "agender" to "transwoman" passing by « Gender Variant ». It is a major step for the non-binary gender population.

But all those terms can cause problems of official recognition of Identity in ID card etc.. It has caused major debates in some countries which are more or less open to the discussion. What do you think about that ? Should we put more option than male or female on the official papers (even if those people are asocited and identified physically to a gender) ?

Hi !!!
I totally agree with you girls ! "we live in a very gendered society". When you are a man you have to be a real "man" (courageous, virile, strong, to do BBQ and to fill petrol in your car) and when you are a girl, you have to be a real "woman" (beautibul, glamorous, desirable, to keep children and decorate the house...). I don't understand why.....

The gender term is very important in our society....I don't know why...;because, me, when I speak with someone, I don't care what is the gender....If the person is nice...what is the importance ?
But people are categorize in 2 : man and woman, look the sounding !! You are a man or a woman ? And sounding want to demostrate all the time that they are differences between male and female. But it exists people who don't want to be categorize in this kind of box. Severals associations compaign for add a possibility in a sounding :
- male
- female
- other
I think it could be a great progress !

hey guys,

My take on this kind of subjects is pretty simple, anyone should be allowed, to do and be whatever they want, as long as it doesn't hurt other people or step on their freedoms, and non-binary people are not an exception.

I have never met a non-binary person, so every idea and opinion i am sharing today are based on my research and what's on social media, i'm no expert.

First, i notice that non-binary people are bullied and made fun off everywhere on the internet, which is obviously a very bad thing, and is one of the many reasons why the suicide rates in the non-binary/transgender community are higher than any other (>40%), so it would be very nice if people started looking past their noses.

I think that alike any other community or group of people, the non-binary community has some bad seeds among them, people that are making the whole community look bad because they're usually the loudest, for example, i think getting offended when someone refers to you by a "wrong" pronoun and giving them a hard time about it is a little bit over the top, you can't expect people to guess how you identify.

When it comes to using dozens of pronouns or even genders like Facebook did in the U.S would be very problematic if done by a government, because a lot of people would abuse the system and it could created serious security and organization concerns, and an especially obvious practicality concerns when it comes to gender fluid people (people who switch between genders depending on their mood or the situation), if something has to be done about the matter, i think a genderless pronoun would be good enough, it could even be used by everyone not only non-binary people.

For people who bring up the "not normal/natural" debate, my only answer is why do you care and why does it matter ? I, myself don't know if it's natural or not, but i think it's irrelevant, i think everyone of us broke the "natural" barrier, if such thing exists, at least once in their lifetime. so i urge people to stop trying to be something they are not (scientists) and be what they already are by nature (humans).

I think it's a delicate and complicated subject. I can not really say my opinion because I do not know enough about it. I only agree that everyone must be able to take responsibility for what he is, what he feels. Personally for me a person who wants to change sex or a person who travels is not a non-binary person .. if I understand the difference.

I found an article that answers my questions well, which allows to better understand the differences, if you're interested:
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-non-binary-or-have-non-binary-gender-4172702

Hi!

Thank you Lea for your definition. To be honest I do not know much about this subject. But it seems interesting, in the sense that it pushes for thinking. It is true that we live in a very gendered society and that it is sometimes difficult to argue and understand that there may be alternatives to the feminine and masculine gender. I understand that some people do not feel man or woman, and I find it good to be able to affirm its no-binary gender. this allows people to ask words about who they are, to express how they feel ...

Hello guys,

Like you said before, it’s a complicated subject, I don’t have opinions about it, people are free to be who they want. In my island, in the past, tahitian people’s thinking was categorical, men is a men and likewise for women. Little by little, there was the emancipation of tahitian people. Nowadays, when a men changed into or act like a woman, we call them « rere », I don’t know what does it mean, or « petea » it’s from a local bird’s name and I don’t know why it is a negative designation. With my mom we just call them  « flowers » because they are resplendent and they are completely at ease with themselves.

Hi !!

Well every body can be what he wants with respect of the others like said Badr.

Maybe, we can change some official paper and not specify the gender because is not important.

If to be a girl or to be a men is different, and we don't think in the same way is because of the culture.

A lot of the identification gender are useless : colors, hobbies, or certain works ( man can be precise at his work and women can have big muscles)..
To change that : the parental education can be the same (girls/boys can cry or play at any games), the add can shows boys and girls in the same way (mister France can be diffuse in equality of miss France),  animated cartoon (the attitude of the girl could be less "girly") and the youtubers can be more creative  (to have less youtubers of makeup…).

Do you think the world of advertising can change of strategies and stop to seperate the Men of Women ?
A world without seperation of gender can be liberating ?

Hello,

Indeed, the subject is not easy this week, but very interesting. I admit I don't know that much about this subject.
But I agree with you guys about our "gendered society", wether you're a girl or a boy, there is no much place in-between.

"My take on this kind of subjects is pretty simple, anyone should be allowed, to do and be whatever they want, as long as it doesn't hurt other people or step on their freedoms, and non-binary people are not an exception."
And I totally agree with Badr, I think non-gender people, as everyone, should have the choice and be able to decide for themself. Also,they should be able to take their decision without the aim of filling a "case", matching a pre-existant "type", simply do they want.

Moreover, I think the subject is "difficult" because the society and country should help them in their situation. As this fact, legal recognition of non-binary and intersex people has surprisingly come a long way since Jamie Shupe became the first legally recognized non-binary person in the U.S. in June 2016. Now there are five states — Arkansas, Oregon, California, Maine, and Minnesota — that offer non-binary gender markers on driver’s licenses and state IDs, along with the District of Columbia. It's evolving and of course asking a lot of questions stating with the identity papers, should be created an other gender nation wide ?
Did you know that gender markers did not appear on passports until the 1970s in the US. According to Samantha Allen of The Daily Beast, gender markers officially appeared on US passports in 1977 thanks to the growing trend of unisex clothing and androgynous presentation among young people.

It really asks many questions, like will non-binary gender markers go nationwide? What are the legal barriers preventing that from happening? What about people who think there shouldn’t be any gender markers at all?

GENDER & SEX
Sex- Your assigned gender at birth and/or the gender of your reproductive organs
Gender- Where you feel that you personally fall on the spectrum between male and female. Commonly people identify as male or female, but some fall in the middle or move throughout the spectrum.
Cisgender- When you identify with the gender you were assigned at birth
Transgender- When you identify with a gender different than that you were assigned at birth
Transsexual- When you have had Gender Reassignment Surgery (GRS) to change the sexual organs you were born with to that of a different gender.


*note that you will sometimes see an astrid after Trans (Trans*) which is meant to include both transgendered and transsexual individuals


Male to Female (MtF)- When somebody that is assigned as a male at birth identifies as a female
Female to Male (FtM)- When somebody that is assigned as a female at birth identifies as a male
Binary- The genders at each end of the gender spectrum (male and female)
Non-Binary- An umbrella term for genders that fall somewhere in the middle of the gender spectrum and are neither strictly male or female. This can be used as a gender identification without further explanation. Sometimes the term, genderqueer, is used.
Genderfluid- Moving between genders or having a fluctuating gender identity
Agender- Not identifying with any gender. Sometimes referred to as being genderless or gendervoid
Bigender- Identifying as two genders, commonly (but not exclusively) male and female. Sometimes you feel like both genders at the same time and sometimes you fluctuate.
Polygender- When you identify with multiple genders at once. Sometimes referred to as multigender.
Neutrois- When you identify as agender, neither male nor female, and/or genderless
Gender Apathetic- When you really do not identify nor care about any particular gender. You are fine passing off as whatever and you really do not have an opinion towards your own gender.
Androgyne- This term overlaps a lot between gender identification and presentation. It can be used to describe others and as an identification. This term is used to describe people who are neither male nor female or are both male and female. Basically anyone who does not fit into a binary gender category.
Intergender- Somebody who's gender is somewhere between male and female
Demigender- When you feel as if you are one part a defined gender and one or more parts an undefined gender. Terms can include demigirl, demiboy, demiagender, ect.
Greygender- Somebody with a weak gender identification of themselves
Aporagender- Somebody with a strong gender identification of themselves that is non-binary
Maverique- A non-binary gender that exists outside of the orthodox social bounds of gender
Novigender- A gender that is super complex and impossible to describe in a single term
Designated gender- A gender assigned at birth based on an individuals sex and/or what gender society percieves a person to be
AFAB- Assigned Female At Birth
AMAB- Assigned Male At Birth
Gender roles- Certain behaviors an activities expected/considered acceptable of people in a particular society based upon their designated gender
Gender Presentation- The gender you present yourself to others. This is sometimes referred to as gender expression
Transitioning- The process of using medical means to change your sex
Intersex- A biological difference in sex that is when people are born with genitals, gonads, and/or chromosomes that do not match up exactly with male or female. Intersex individuals can have any romantic/sexual orientation and can have any gender identification. Intersex individuals are about as common as redheads.
Dyadic- Someone who is not intersex and when their gentinals, gonads, and chromosomes can all match into either a male or female category
Trans Woman- Someone who is assigned as a male at birth, but identifies as a woman
Trans Man- Someone who is assigned as a female at birth, but identifies as a man
Trans Feminine- Someone who identifies as feminine, but identifies as neither a man nor a woman. They must also be assigned male at birth.
Trans Masculine- Someone who identifies as masculine, but identifies as neither a man nor a woman. They must also be assigned female at birth.
Social Dysphoria- Discomfort experienced when acting in ways socially different than your gender or being addressed in ways different to your gender
Body Dysphoria- Discomfort experienced because of the difference between gender and your sex, role, or gender expression
Butch- A term used to describe someone who's gender expression is more masculine than feminine. This is commonly used in describing women or lesbians.
Femme (Fem)- A term used to describe someone who's gender expression is more feminine than masculine. This is commonly used in describing women or lesbians.
Binarism- Putting gender strictly into two categories (male and female) and refusing to acknowledge genders outside of male and female.

Hi,

I agree with everything you said !

In fact, i think this topic is difficult this week but it's evolving in our society. Binary people, or any califications of sex or gender, are now seen as completely normal and equal to people who are more decided on the issue.
I think there is a real awareness by the younger generations about sex and gender. I don't think that 10 or 15 years ago young adults like us would have had this conversation.
But despite this democratization of gender and sex, there are still people who are resistant and I think that is a shame.
This is a century where everyone should be able to show their personality.

See you tomorrow !

Hi,
As all of you I don't know a lot about non-binary people, except that they don't feel neither boy or girl. I must say I don't really understand, because everyone has a sexual gender (except the hermaphrodites), and there you can "fit" with this gender or feel more the other, so you are transgender. But if you feel not boy and not girl, it means that you don't feel boy (or girl) as the society represents it. The non-binary people reject the gendered society, but you can be a girl and don't act like the "girl's cliché" or be a boy and don't act like "boy's cliché". So they are against the society but actually it seems they are the ones who put the more importance in the dictates of the society.
As I said I don't really understand but I am not for or against them, if they feel good this way we should help them to make their life easier, like in Germany when they approved this summer a law project for adding "other" next to "male" or "female" on the official documents.
I just read about Germany that the non-binary community is actually happy because it is a first step for their recognition, but this is not what they ask. They ask for not putting the gender category at all on the documents. So it asks the question why we put the gender on the documents and what would be the impact if we don't put them anymore ? They also propose to put all the kids in a "neutral" gender, and when we are adults we can choose between female, male or non-binary.
Personnaly I think we should not make totally "disappear" the female and male gender on the documents, but we should help the non-binary people to feel "normal", not excluded, by recognise them, and not obligate them to choose between genders they don't feel like.

Interesting Justine, the idea of removing the notion of Gender completely is quite attractive. It would make sense in an "equal" world. Of course the Church would be against it, so it's not going to happen but the idea of sexism and feminism etc... would be helped greatly by this move.

Does it matter whether we are labelled as Male or Female?

Admin wrote:Interesting Justine, the idea of removing the notion of Gender completely is quite attractive. It would make sense in an "equal" world. Of course the Church would be against it, so it's not going to happen but the idea of sexism and feminism etc... would be helped greatly by this move.

Does it matter whether we are labelled as Male or Female?

Good question John....I don't have any answer....maybe when we are a little "human" (because we can use male or female ), it's not important in fact. There is no "physical" difference between a little boy or a little girl....and sometimes little girl want a car game (I wanted a remote controlled car when I was 9, but I didn't say anything to my friend because I known that people was going to laughing at me ) and little boy want a doll... It could be good in this case to avoid labelling as Male or Female behaviour....

Marion.LM wrote:

Admin wrote:Interesting Justine, the idea of removing the notion of Gender completely is quite attractive. It would make sense in an "equal" world. Of course the Church would be against it, so it's not going to happen but the idea of sexism and feminism etc... would be helped greatly by this move.

Does it matter whether we are labelled as Male or Female?

Good question John....I don't have any answer....maybe when we are a little "human" (because we can use male or female ), it's not important in fact. There is no "physical" difference between a little boy or a little girl....and sometimes little girl want a car game (I wanted a remote controlled car when I was 9, but I didn't say anything to my friend because I known that people was going to laughing at me ) and little boy want a doll... It could be good in this case to avoid  labelling as Male or Female behaviour....

The more that I think this idea over the better I think it would be for equality.

No more Mr.Miss,Mrs, Ms. No more titles. prohibit their use on forms etc...

The next step is to then move towards names that show no gender bias like Pat - France has a lot of these names if we remove the "e".