S2 W8 Evaluations, Tests, Exams, "Concours" , Selection....

What do you think about the French system both in education and work concerning evaluations, tests and selections? What have you heard about other systems? How would you like to see them changed? What are their strengths and weaknesses? I'm not talking about evaluations in English - I know their weaknesses and don't want you to depress me!

Ladies (and Adrien)

I'd just like to apologise for the test not being ready to start at 9am this morning. That shouldn't happen and I will take into account the inconveniences when marking it. Have a good week.

Admin wrote:Ladies (and Adrien)

I'd just like to apologise for the test not being ready to start at 9am this morning. That shouldn't happen and I will take into account the inconveniences when marking it. Have a good week.

It's so sweet of you to apologize. Actually, it wasn't your fault at all, any way, thank you

Hi,
First of all I agree with Katia, it wasn't your fault John and I think everyone had enough time to do the test.

The French education system isn't the best, but I don't think it's the worst either.
Of course, we have all had teachers who are sometimes not very competent, but I think that overall the level of education in France is good. We are fortunate to have many schools nearby, unlike some children who have to travel miles to get to school. It should be taken as a privilege to have access to education at a very early age.

The education system could nevertheless evolve and no longer refer only to the strict grade system. I find it uninteresting to put a mark on a subject. It would be, I think, more judicious to note the degree of learning through skills acquired or not.
I'm glad that I never went to college and that my studies never depended only on a partial exam. I find it stressful and frustrating that a single exam determines an average and has an impact on whether or not a semester is validated.
Moreover, I find that the old baccalaureate system was simpler with S, ES, ...

As far as the world of work is concerned, I find that many people complain wrongly. Indeed, many people can benefit from unemployment, which is not the case everywhere, just as many people can benefit from aid. Moreover, the minimum wage is increasing in France, which is a good thing.
With regard to the quality of life at work, I also have a positive opinion, although this depends on each company, I am well aware of that.
The French are notorious for complaining, and that is a shame. Many people see what they do not have before they see what they already have, and I think that is a shame.

No system is perfect and despite all the good intentions of the leaders to evolve, people will always manage to find negative aspects and to manifest themselves on everything.
It's conceivable that everyone will claim these interests, but without forgetting to know where the real priorities are.

You don't have to apologize !! Thank you for it but don't worry about it John! Really !

I totally agree with everything you said Camille!
I think our education system is pretty well thought out even if the biggest problem remains, as you said very well, strict notation by a number. I also don't think this is a good solution to show a student that he’s good or bad, on the contrary it makes the situation worse and creates a kind of competition that doesn’t have to be in a class. Grading of comprehension, which already exists for primary school, should be applied to all levels of study.

Also, I know that the English, Belgian and German school systems are very different from ours.
The days end earlier to allow the student to keep the rest of the day for homework or extra-curricular activities such as sports. They are just as important as lessons because they are break times when the mind takes a breath of fresh air. Thus, he can follow much better during the next course session. Unlike in France where you can have lessons from 8 am to 7 pm easily with a single meridian break. This is ineffective because we all know very well that attention is no longer optimal after a few hours of concentration already.

I also know that English people can choose the subjects to take at the exam when they are at high school level. Thus, philosophy is not imposed to them for example, a subject which may be interesting, of course, but which is very relative to the person and her way of seeing things, therefore not really relevant for a common core, such as is the case in France.
As far as uniforms are concerned, this tradition facilitates the integration of young people by erasing social inequalities and reducing the problems of discrimination. So I think it's a good thing.

Likewise I agree with you on the fact that the French people just know to say what is wrong, I am tired of hearing us complain constantly, while we wouldn’t last 3 seconds in Africa for example.

In addition with regard to contest allowing access to certain training and fee-paying schools in France, I don't understand them all.
For example, I tried to pass the speech therapist contest for 3 years .. and I constantly failed because of the too large number of people applying for the too limited number of places in schools, while it's a profession that needs people because more and more people are diagnosed with gaps to express themselves, understand French, learn etc.
I even had very good results in my speech therapy and language pathology course. But the problem is that to sort, this kind of competition is based on everything except the ability to become a speech therapist (questions about everything and anything just to eliminate people, and it works). It really disgusted me because I know I could have blossomed in this profession.
But anyways, this year things are changing and access can be granted on file .. too bad it wasn't done before.

Wow, the subject inspired you girls !

I think that the french system needs to be reviewed, but it's complicated to change a system that has been in place for a long time, people want change but when you have to do it there's no one left and everyone complains (congrats french people).

At the moment, there is no other system than the grading system, but grading is something hard, pushing people from a young age to measure themselves against others, to do better or to be jealous. It puts enormous pressure on children, especially the parents behind who only see the grade and not all the work to be learned for the test in question.
Some people want an "A" "B" "C",... grading system... but in the end you also put people in boxes. I don't think there are no any good solutions unfortunaly.

There will always be the 20/20 who will be treated like a king and who will be put in high schools and "Science po" (whereas this person simply wanted to do a pastry CAP) and next to this people, the 10/20, the 6/20 who will feel like a loser, that we will push in professional way because "you don't know how to do anything else" "you don't have the level" "work with your hands if you can't think with you head", that we destroy without even realizing it for a number....

The problem is not the education system but society...

Hello !
Wow you're comments are interesting girls !

What a complex and wide-ranging subject but very interesting !

First of all, I don't agree with you Laura the education system is a problem for me.. With a new education system, the society will adapt and be better for it.

I think there are strenghts and weaknesses in the french education system like others but for me there are more weaknesses ...
The french education system is free of charge so it allows that all the children have access to some education.
Moreover, there are a lot of weaknesses (sorry Lauralee ^^).
In France, certain areas are neglected (the suburbs). Then, the education program for me is not the best , look at my level in english. In history too, we learn some stories with the French point of view but in reality it's more complex. I think the school must teach us this complexity of history, that not everything is black or white...
After all, the new law which allows for high school students to choose their subjects at BAC is relevant because these subjects interest them.
I agree with Laura,the rating with A,B,C is not a good solution because people are still in boxes.

Furthermore, some time ago I read an article on the educational system of the northern countries, I don't remember it in full but I remmeber that children are better than french people because they can choose their subjects, their are also TV in english (so it's help a lot to become fluent) and the system try to help all students without judging them.

If I take my school career as an exemple, I met some passionate teachers and that makes it all. Indeed, with passionate teachers, good program and with teachers with a little charisma, students are bound to succeed !
Unfortunately, I met some "atypical" teachers.... for who I've been wondering how they got their aggregation ?

By the way, I think that teachers need more supervision and help if they are struggling in front of a class. I think it can be traumatic if everyday your class is disrespectfull or other.

To conclude, french education system must be completely rethought and draw inspiration from better-functioning education systems ! Our system is still designed to privilege some and neglect others.
In my opinion, it maintains inequalities.

Lauralee Spadat wrote:

In addition with regard to contest allowing access to certain training and fee-paying schools in France, I don't understand them all.
For example, I tried to pass the speech therapist contest for 3 years .. and I constantly failed because of the too large number of people applying for the too limited number of places in schools, while it's a profession that needs people because more and more people are diagnosed with gaps to express themselves, understand French, learn etc.
I even had very good results in my speech therapy and language pathology course. But the problem is that to sort, this kind of competition is based on everything except the ability to become a speech therapist (questions about everything and anything just to eliminate people, and it works). It really disgusted me because I know I could have blossomed in this profession.
But anyways, this year things are changing and access can be granted on file .. too bad it wasn't done before.

I agree with you about the competitive exams. To be an Agreg or CAPES Language teacher you need to be fantastic at French and know the French classics, if fact the only things you don't need to know are how to teach or to be able to speak decent English. I could never pass it if I tried and I know many good native English teachers who have failed many times and then given up and teach in private language schools instead.

Finnish Education:

https://bigthink.com/mike-colagrossi/no-standardized-tests-no-private-schools-no-stress-10-reasons-why-finlands-education-system-in-the-best-in-the-world

Hello everyone,

It's an important topic and your answers girls are quite interesting.

Well, I think France's education system is ok, according to the Pisa ranking in 2020, France is ranked 23rd out of 79 countries assessed, so it's quite good, maybe not one of the best but not the worst.

I like the foundations of education in France, education is compulsory from the age of six, so this protects the child from his parents in the event that they don't want to school him at the age of six years.

I also found Secularism, which is a fundamental principle of the school system in France a very good foundation that implies a separation between Church and State.

The school is within everyone's reach, because it's free, otherwise in some countries it's very expensive. The teachers are sometimes good sometimes bad, and what I like the most about the statute of teacher here in France is that he must be neutral with pupils and set aside his political and religious opinions. Punishment is also a very important point in the education system of France, in the past, the punishment in French schools was very severe, they use many means to offend and ridicule the child in front of his classmates (whip, dunce cap, the shame parenting...) thanks God, the times have change.

Last year I did my internship in a public elementary school and I noticed that the methods of punishing are very soft, the teacher speaks calmly with his pupil and asks him for explanations why he did this stupidity, and the pupil naturally apologizes.

I also like active pedagogy which makes the student an actor of his learning and promote autonomy in him, I think it's a very good way to learn.

Regarding the notation system in France, I'm not for that, because the students doesn't focus on the concepts and knowledge they must acquire but do everything to get a mark, so they don't study to get knowledge but just to get marks.

See you

Good morning everyone!

I've read a lot of interesting things about this subject.
First of all, don't worry John about the Toeic test, everyone was able to finish on time, that's the main thing
We have to thank Charles-Alex without whom all this would not have been possible. Not all heroes wear a cape!

Concerning the French education system, I only know this one, so it's hard to say if it's better than another one. Then in this country, all teachers have a different way of grading. Some think that being strict and giving bad marks gives them the status of good teachers.

On the contrary, I think that it contributes to discouragement rather than self-improvement.
The current grading system may seem strict and unfair, but I think it should be retained as a means of rewarding those who work hardest.

Good week, see you

Hi there little buddies !

I'll perhaps get out of your comments but I find that our education system in France is "correct". At least on the fact that we can get to a Bachelor’s level without spending too much money. For example, in America, students have some money problems because studies costs a lot. Btw, education in northern Europe countries is a fine example of virtue. They teach young children to listen to each other, to respect each other, to help each other, and even offer them courses in psychology and ethics. This is what it would be for us in France to increase tolerance, respect and benevolence from the earliest age...

However, we are only numbers (we'll see this for our results at the TOIEC test by the way), which places us immediately on a scale, where the best are rewarded and socially well regarded, while the least good people are reprimanded. People with bad grades doesn’t get feedbacks on mistakes they made... Yet, they're sometimes very gifted in other domains than school, but cannot access to comfortable jobs because of diploma which is supposed to open doors... Indeed, we should learn things and not note us in one time, a single control (sometimes stressful and difficult when it's about the chapter that we have the least learn...). Continuous control is better, it makes it possible to evaluate oneself throughout the school curriculum, to know you really worth, and to be able to catch up if you have had a bad grade at some point.

Finally, I also hate this fake meritocracy system, where students with parents with money get good schools and then good jobs in big companies, when they have not so much distinctive things with us, public school students. But this is only a detail in itself... And a longer debate
See ya

Hi,

People say that our system in education needs change, I agree with this idea, but I think it is complicated to find a new system that works for everyone. Today in elementary and middle school, there are no more marks, there is a color system. But I don't find this system satisfactory, because sooner or later, students will face the competition either at university, or in the world of work.

So how to change ? I find that referring to the German or Spanish model is a good idea. Freeing up the afternoon for activities or workshops, would teach to live together, the respect, and tolerance. Also I think learning by playing very interesting, and very enriching for the students.

Another thing, the French are known for their low level in foreign languages, so it would be very useful to devote one day a week entirely to English language for the nursery and primary classes.

I hope Mr Blanquer will read our comments.

See you!

Hi everyone!

This topic really inspire you! But honestly, at this time of the morning I'm not determined to read your thoughts... even if I'm sure there are relevant, sorry.

I would like to talk about others systems first. My cousins are Italians, they used to study only the morning (at least during the college I think) to have free time the afternoon. I don't remember if they had homework, I don't want to say bullshit but I think they didn't have.
I find this system interesting, I think it's more efficient for student to work only the morning and to not be overloaded with homework. A free afternoon allows them to be "efficient" in what they want, what they love so allows us to develop themselves and their own path.

Concerning Germany, (I'm sorry John, hope you'll accept my apologizes but I'll speak a bit about English) I met a german student once and it's surprising how she was fluent in English. She told be she has to read books in English and she had lessons in English (at college/ high school). So I can imagine that german educaiton system is good. Same thing, I met a Belgium, he was learning French for one year and guess what? He was more at ease in French in one year than me in Spanish whereas I studied it for 8 years... feel so depress.

French education system... well. (I won't talk about work system bc for now I don't have enough experience). Of course it has weaknesses, teachers and professors are "denigrate" (I mean "dévalorisés"), we still exclude children who have difficulties etc. etc. I won't make a list bc girls and Adrien already talk about it.
Our education system is base on marks and it conditions children to have the same way of thinking, to follow the trend, not to be marginal. In a book I read, Latouche questions the ways of raising our children, questioning "the schools [which] are part of a society where a minority is becoming so productive that we must train the majority to be disciplined consumers". Great summary.

I don't really know how I would like things to change but I'll think about it and I also think that going closer to a system like Montessori schools could be a great thing. Some schools are taking a change, for instance I saw a school integrating meditation in its way of learning: looks like a nice idea. If you want to have a look : https://www.brut.media/fr/entertainment/la-rochelle-des-cours-de-meditation-a-l-ecole-ea5b9308-f346-4ae6-a892-53d383e12fda

Time to edit my tutorial, see you!

Hi guys !

Actually, you were really inspired ! I tried to read all of your comments but maybe I haven't read anything so please, forgive me if I say something you've already said.

I think there are some good things in our education system, but there are also bad things which should be changed.

In France, you don't have to pay (or it's not really expensive) to go to school. It's a good point. But, the fact it exists private school is bad. First, it creates a gap between "rich" and "poor" children. Plus, teachers earn more money there, so when they can, they leave public school to go there. And sometimes, the ones who stay are not the best ones...
I think it's ridiculous that in public system, you can't fire a teacher. It's the reason why we all crossed the road of some teachers or professors who had nothing to do there. And everybody knows this person isn't a good teacher but the best thing you can do is to change him/her from a school to another one...  

I lived pretty much the same situation as Caroline. When I went to Norway in high school, my penpal was learning english since she was like 3 yo and so she spoke a very well english. Plus, she was learning french for 1 or 2 years and she spoke in french well too ! I think we should begin to learn english earlier, like when we start to go to school, at 3. Today, english is so important !

Finally, I agree with Emma : respect, tolerance, mutual aid and sharing should be the most important things to teach to children, as soon as possible.
I'll do my first internship in a school where they use Montessori and Frenet methods. I know they use non-violent education too and I'm really eager to learn more about those methods.
In french system, they try to let the same chances to every student, that's why they globalize all the learning processes. But every student is unique and every student needs its own learning process ; maybe if we let the choice to children or if we customized learning processes, they would like school more and learn better.
I'm eager to do my internship to see how this school works and i'm even more eager to do my second internship in a public school to compare.  

See you !

Hello everyone

What we have been discussing here is very interesting as we can see that nowadays many people are clearly expressing their anger concerning the education system starting with school boys and girls till students.

In fact, many parents want the govenment to review many strategies and ways of learning and evaluating their young children for it is either not efficient or not enough. We can see that the young generation is having more and more difficulties with writing and reading correctly.

On the other hand, high school students and university students seem to be against the evaluation system as they say it is too strict which makes them obliged to learn by heart without really having the time to understand. Plus, it is too theoritical most of the time and students don't really have the time to practise and prepare themselves to profssionnal life.

Hello,

I don't agree with the french system on the point of learning for learning to pass a test instead of trying to understanding what the teacher is talking about. I also don't like the fact that you have to have marks to enter in a master and not about your profile or your capacities to evolve and understand things quickly. If for example, you're a student which only is able to learn by heart, you will be choosen instead of the other student which doesn't like to learn by heart and prefer to understand and memorize things. Master in most of the cases prefer to choose the student with the better marks.
On the other hand, the fact that the school is particaly free it's very good thing because don't have to pay for studies' child (they will maybe have to pay for a rent). Parents don't have to put money on a bankaccount at the birth of their child to prepare for their potentials studies in 20 years like in America. We're very lucky on this point.